[HPforGrownups] Apologizing to Snape? (was: Harry's story, not Snape's)

[lady.indigo at gmail.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 139054

On 8/29/05, dumbledore11214 <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> The only thing I know is that I am very happy that JKR did not do 
> the route many fanfiction writers suggested and made Harry humbly 
> beg Snape's forgiveness, growl at his feet for looking in his 
> Pensieve ( was it Nora who said it first?)


I'm not asking for a complete disintegration of self here, and definitely 
not for Harry to forget the ills that were done to him. I'm saying that if 
Harry found the maturity to pity him then he could have *possibly* seen the 
sense in making an overture of respect towards the fact that, at least 
concerning Harry's father, *Snape was right*. Whether or not Snape accepted 
that gesture, and I'm far from sure that he would, it doesn't matter. Harry 
would have tried in a moment that couldn't be excused as the embarassment of 
getting caught, would have been sincere in that apology. And Snape quite 
possibly would have remembered it, whether or not he would have treated it 
like what it was.

It suggests to me that the possibility that Snape deliberately left 
> out the Pensieve for Harry to see may still be vialble one OR simply 
> that in Harry/Snape interactions Harry's train of thought will be 
> on the right track. JMO of course.


And what evidence do we have of that? Unless we've got another case of Snape 
as a brilliant actor with a grand manipulation going on in the background, 
of course.

Come to think of it, we debated a lot on why Harry did not thank 
> Snape for saving his life in PS/SS. I used to hold POV that Harry 
> was simply too young to thank the teacher who basically verbally 
> attacked him on the first leson ( IMO), but now I think that it 
> could be a hint that Snape had quite a selfish motivation to save 
> Harry's life and in JKR's mind Harry should not thank him for it.
> 
> I mean not that Harry would be aware of it of course, so it would 
> still go against politeness rules, but maybe JKR would not want him 
> to do it for the reasons known to her only.
> 

That doesn't really make sense to me. A character's actions shouldn't 
reflect what he will know six years in the future, or events he's mistaken 
about but isn't aware of it, or what his author knows. They reflect who he 
is and what he knows at the moment, and that's the only way they should be 
taken, at least if you hope for realism.



On 8/29/05, eggplant107 <eggplant107 at hotmail.com> wrote: 

>Why should he do that when Snape didn't apologize for poking into
>Harry's very private things; and if he had apologized he'd really feel
>like a horse's rear end now when he discovered that the man he had
>apologized to was the murderer of the greatest and kindest wizard of
>the age. 

Because while Snape's teaching methods were extremely probing and a touch 
sadistic (keeping in touch with his usual modus operandi there), they WERE 
devised to teach Harry while he was in a position of authority. He had far 
more grounds to do so, though I don't dismiss the subtle abuse there at all. 
And if Snape abused that, then yes, he should have apologized for it. 
There's a lot that Snape has to apologize and account for, but right now I 
believe he's emotionally stunted among other things and is not in the 
position to even think clearly enough to do so. Harry has a lot of anger and 
a lot of pain himself, but he by all accounts is more emotionally healthy 
than Snape is. He needs to take the high road. Dumbledore put them together 
in hopes that *someone* would, and for you to excuse Harry is advocating his 
immaturity just as much as you seem to think I advocate Snape's.
See above for how I'm certainly not excusing Harry based on whatever YOU 
think Snape's motives were in Book 6.

> You can't apologize for what somebody else did, 

Harry can most certainly apologize for defending and sanctifying a man who 
seemed to demonstrate just how cruel children can be at a time that he was 
FAR too old to 'not know any better'.

>or maybe Harry should
>apologize for existing, or at least for being his father's son. 

Please note that I suggested nothing of the kind and asked only that Harry 
point out to Snape that he is NOT his father.

>Any >sympathy I had for Snape when I first read of that bulling incident
>had largely evaporated by the end of book 5, even after all the hell
>Harry went through and it was obvious he was in a deep depression
>Snape couldn't resist tormenting Harry a little more. 

Snape is an emotionally adolescent, sour, bitter, cruel, sadistic man. I 
have never denied this. I can overlook - not EXCUSE, but OVERLOOK - his 
actions based on the fact that this is typical Snape and I think it's going 
to take a good long time and a lot of support from unexpected places for him 
to move beyond this. Harry, on the other hand, IS an adolescent, angry, 
reckless, and bitter in certain regards...but he's also got a lot of praise, 
love, and until the end of Book 6 some fantastic advice. In the form of 
people like Skeeter, Lockhart, and Slughorn he's also got an *excess* of 
attention. Forgive me if I can't be as understanding about The Hero of Our 
Story, the one who it's all about, failing to realize or maybe failing to 
care that Snape's lessons were important, Snape himself (as far as he knew) 
was valuable to the Order, and some respect in the appropriate places might 
make dealing with the man a little more pleasant. I'm not even expecting the 
apology to come in Book 5, when Harry was unfit for it, but in Book 6 he 
decided to blame Snape for Sirius, hate him for every little thing, and 
mouth off to him (which certainly couldn't have helped in seperating him 
from his father) - a lot of it before he even factored Snape into his 
suspicions.
Harry's moving further and further towards the Dark Side of the Force 
through his hate, and I'm surprised at how few people in both camps see 
that.

By the end of
>book 6 I felt that James was far too easy on Snape, hanging him
>upside-down was not nearly good enough, he deserved more, much more, I
>wish he'd disemboweled him. 

Yes, of course Snape should have been killed a few decades before he could 
supposedly murder Dumbledore, an action that had ambiguities you seem to be 
completely ignoring. Would you like us to take the next step and murder 
infants for their future crimes, too?
Snape was publicly humiliated and arguably sexually harassed when he was 
minding his own business. This was not the first time, and later a few of 
these bullies would try to kill/severely injure him for a laugh. If you 
don't think that contributed to who he was in the future, I'm shocked.

- Lady Indigo


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