ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 139141

> >>Neri:
> <snip> 
> But I've noticed that, while you can't see the secret passion in
> Severus' eyes, you seem to agree that Cissy was falling all over  
> him during the whole chapter. So let me ask you again my original 
> question #1: Why did Narcissa choose such tactics and how did she 
> know it would work on Snape?

Betsy Hp:
As I said before, Narcissa was not acting like a woman manipulating 
a smitten man in this scene, IMO.  She was too sloppy in her 
despair.  I think she was as desperate as her actions suggested (she 
loves her son) though I also think she probably has a touch of drama 
in her (shared by Draco) that influenced her a bit. (IOW, a 
naturally more retiring woman would have shown her desperation in a 
different way.)

However I also think Narcissa went to Snape for a very specific 
reason.  I think she *does* think Snape is the only person likely to 
help her in her fix.  She says as much.  I happen to think Narcissa 
feels Snape is someone who will help because he is a friend to the 
Malfoy family.  (She brings up his friendship with Lucius and his 
relationship with Draco.)   In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if 
Lucius hadn't told her at some point, "If something happens to me 
and you need help, go to Snape," or something along those lines.
 
> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Yes, Snape can go bat-poo crazy when his emotions are raised.  
> > We've seen this in PoA and we saw it in OotP.  For Snape to make 
> > this kind of massive sacrifice at such a critical time (and     
> > Snape *must* realize how critical the times are no matter what  
> > side he's on) for such a heart on his sleeve reason he'd have to 
> > be operating on pure emotion.  And, IMO, that level of emotion   
> > is impossible for Snape to hide.  He's never been able to before.

> >>Neri:
> Gee, it's really not easy maneuvering between you
> Snape-can't-act-to-save-his-life guys the Snape-is-an-Oscar-actor 
> guys <g>. I've already explained why Snape can't go into Shrieking 
> Shack mode here. It would ruin everything both within and outside 
> the story.

Betsy Hp:
I'm a middle of the road gal myself, if that helps <g>.  And I would 
argue that it would have behooved Snape to hold himself together 
while in the Shrieking Shack.  Snape doesn't *choose* to go all 
fiery passion, he just does it.  The very fact that he *is* able to 
hold himself together suggests a controllable level of emotion to 
me. (YMMV, and I'll bet, does. <g>)

> >>Neri:
> But we get enough clues that he isn't merely calculating. His     
> gentle behavior towards Narcissa is a *huge* clue if contrasted   
> with his behavior towards anybody else throughout the series.

Betsy Hp:
It's already been pointed out (by myself and others, I think) that 
Snape is as gentle (or even more so) with Draco as he is with 
Narcissa.  So maybe it *is* a Malfoy family thing.

> >>Neri:
> Nor does he manages to maintain absolute control during the Vows - 
> before he makes that crucial last Vow his hand twitches inside    
> Narcissa'a hand, and he hesitates before answering.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Well, yes.  This is the moment where everything goes pear-shaped so 
I'd expect Snape to react.  Actually, the very fact that he *does* 
react goes towards my argument that when Snape is hit by an emotion 
there is usually *some* sort of tell.  The bigger the emotion the 
bigger the tell, IMO.

> >>Neri:
> This whole UV scene is dramatic and powerfully symbolic. I would  
> feel rather cheated as a reader if it turns out that Snape was    
> merely calculating here.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree that this is a big moment, especially since it leads 
directly to Snape killing Dumbledore.  I've got a working theory at 
the moment, but this is one of the things that has me eagerly 
awaiting book 7.  Hopefully the payoff will be worth the wait.

> >>Neri:
> <snip of quotes>
> Snape's message is silent, but it's obvious enough to me: "Your   
> dear Lucius is the one who got you into this, and I'm under no    
> obligation to mend his mistakes".

Betsy Hp:
Another point where we read the scenes differently.  I thought Snape 
was making clear to Narcissa exactly why Draco was being set up for 
death.  He was making it clear that he couldn't talk Voldemort out 
of this particular punishment. Basically he's letting Narcissa know 
how difficult the task she's asking of him is.  In my view, anyway. 

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > But he does show a certain amount of compassion for the Malfoy  
> > family and their woes.

> >>Neri:
> He does??? Can you quote that? I had the impression he's showing
> compassion *only* for Narcissa...
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Snape listens to Narcissa.  He agrees that she (and her family) are 
in a hard way.  He attacks Bellatrix (who attacks Narcissa's husband 
and son).  Basically I think that Snape reacts to Narcissa as a wife 
and a mother throughout this scene.  You feel he reacts to her as a 
woman.  I would quote the very things you quote, so I don't think 
anything I'd put up would convince you.  I *will* point out, 
however, that Narcissa comes to Snape as a wife and a mother.  She 
speaks of her husband from the beginning; she defends him; she begs 
for help on behalf of her son.  I think that if Narcissa felt Snape 
was interested in her romantically she'd have approached him in a 
different manner. (Less defense of the inconvenient husband, more 
talk about how alone she is, because of her husband's failings, etc.)

> >>Neri:
> <snip>
> The whole connection between Snape and Lily at Hogwarts is        
> currently pure speculation, except for that "mudblood" in the     
> pensieve memory. And if it ever happened then it looks like Lily
> failed, because grownup Snape was the head of house Slytherin for 
> many years and apparently kept the fact that he is a half-blood   
> very quiet.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
What makes you say that?  I'm quite sure that Nott, Zabini, Malfoy 
and that lot know their family trees backwards and forwards.  And 
I'm pretty sure they know each other's trees too.  So I'm quite sure 
they were aware that the name Snape doesn't match with any of the 
pureblood families.

*Harry* didn't know, but he didn't realize that the Weasleys and the 
Malfoys are distant cousins.  Something I'm sure Draco (and possibly 
Ron) were well aware of.  Harry doesn't care about such things and 
so he doesn't enquire.

> >>Betsy Hp:  
> > And if Snape *was* interested in the WW "aristocracy" 
> > shouldn't he adopt at least *some* of the trappings?  Even while 
> > hating himself a little for doing it?

> >>Neri:
> The trappings of the aristocracy are typically very expensive (or 
> they wouldn't be used by aristocracy alone), and I doubt Snape's  
> means extend to manors and house elves. But how about adopting the 
> aristocracy manner of speaking? Not only the words, but also the  
> same sneering, demeaning attitude that Lucius is using. 

Betsy Hp:
Yeah, but an apartment in the right neigborhood could be swung by a 
single guy.  I've met social climbers and Snape ain't it.  Not with 
his little house in that working class neighborhood.  Sure, he talks 
like his friends, but judging by his wallflower behavior at 
Slughorn's party that's about all Snape picked up.
   
> >>Neri:
> The fact he made it clear is important, but also the *way* he did 
> it. I sincerely doubt that the grownup Sirius would ever shout to 
> anyone in any situation "I, the Black Padfoot!" but somehow it is 
> in character for grownup Snape.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I think Sirius had his share of the Black taste for drama.  I'm 
betting he could have declaimed with the best of them. (Lupin 
spouting a similar line would be totally out of left field, however.)

> >>Neri:
> <snip>
> It's only Severus who styles himself a "Prince". 

Betsy Hp:
Because he is.  He's as much a Prince as he is a Snape.  I think 
you're getting too hung up on the "Prince as in royalty" when it's 
really "Prince as in my mother's family".  It's a play on words, and 
that's part of the reason I think someone not Snape (my vote is for 
Lily) came up with the nickname.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > So Snape's madly in love with Narcissa.  So what?  What does it 
> > do for the next book's plot?  What does it explain (except for  
> > the Vow)? How does it effect Harry?  Does it even clear up some 
> > of Snape's ambiguity?

> >>Neri:
> Explaining the Vow is no small thing. It was the direct cause of
> Dumbledore's death and Snape severing his relations with the Order.
> Now, to know how does this affect Harry and the plot of Book 7 I  
> first need to know what the plot of Book 7 is, but I'd hazard a   
> guess that the effect would be considerable.

Betsy Hp:
That's the thing I'm most hung up on.  Because I feel like the story 
should get simpler (ie one fact explaining several different 
mysteries) rather than more complicated.  I just feel like the 
Snape/Narcissa ship while explaining one thing does nothing for any 
other thing.  But I could well be wrong since I've no knowledge of 
book 7's plot either.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > For me there is no doubt, that's true (no ESE!Snape argument has 
> > made sense to me, yet).  

> >>Neri:
> When you came up with the title of this thread "ACID POPS vs
> LOLLIPOPS" I was somehow assuming that we are going to evaluate   
> these two theories based on the canon we already know. But if we  
> are evaluating them based on fitting with Betsy's theories, then I 
> fully concede that LOLLIPOPS might be better.

Betsy Hp:
Oh hey now, there's no need to get snotty <g>.  You asked and I 
answered (don't want to be accused of hiding a bias).  However, I 
did throw in a "but" to keep this discusson on the level.

> >> Betsy Hp:
> > But, even if you think Snape is ESE, LOLLIPOPS provides a motive 
> > that *Dumbledore* may have found credible.  And it's something  
> > that Dumbledore would have been hesitant to share with Harry.
 
> >>Neri:
> <snip of Neri getting into Harry role>
> But my mother has been dead for many years now. Why do you trust  
> Snape *today*? 

Betsy Hp:
That's where that "remorse" comment came in.  Dumbledore believed 
that Snape was truely remorseful and that's why he trusts him today.

> >>Neri:
> And another big problem with LOLLIPOPS: If Snape was in love with
> Lily, then his main reason to hate Sirius in PoA should have been 
> that Sirius betrayed Lily to her death and foiled Snape's attempt 
> to save her, right?
> <snip>
> But Lily practically doesn't count for Snape. From his words you'd 
> never even know that *two* people died that night at GH.

Betsy Hp:
Snape does seem to have a great dislike of Sirius.  And the fact 
that Lily (great at potions Lily) is *never* spoken of by Snape is 
telling too, IMO.  The thing about Lily and Snape is it's more about 
what's missing than what's there.  (Who is the "horrible boy" for 
example.)  Which is why it's really hard to pull up canon. (heh.  
I'm not convincing you at all, am I.)

> >>Neri:
> <snip> 
> In Spinner's End Snape surely shows contempt towards Wormtail,    
> which he has ample reason to, but how can he live with the person 
> he should have hated most in the world after Voldy?

Betsy Hp:
Maybe the vengence of treating Wormtail like utter crap and using 
him to defeat the man Wormtail serves is sufficient.  Wormtail is 
certainly miserable, thanks to Snape, and Snape certainly seems to 
relish his misery.

> >>Neri:
> <snip>
> In short, LOLLIPOPS as a theory for explaining Snape's motives and
> Dumbledore's trust is full of gaping holes. It doesn't really
> "explain" anything.

Betsy Hp:
I think it explains a whole heck of a lot.  And the holes are 
exactly where you find the logic.  It's kind of fun really. :)

> >>Neri:
> Like several other members I suspect that in the climax there will 
> be only room for one Noble Hero of that caliber, and as you say   
> this is a book about Harry.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
So Sirius is chopped liver?  James is a waste of space?  Lily is 
yesterday's compost?  The series is *filled* with heroes, many of 
them noble, and none of them stealing the spotlight from Harry.  It 
is actually possible for Snape to be on the Order's side without 
Harry slipping off the stage.

Betsy Hp who really did try to shorten this post