ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?)

[nkafkafi]

No: HPFGUIDX 139076

A long response for a long post.  

> Betsy Hp:
> There's no sympathy in Snape's eyes, or at least, none is 
> described.  This is where Snape's expression has gone blank so it's 
> hard for me to see him as being moved.  And though I can buy Snape 
> trying to disguise his secret passion from Bellatrix, why would JKR 
> try and hide it from her readers?  If she was heading down this path 
> shouldn't she foreshadow a bit?  
> 
> I have a sneaky suspicion you'd say JKR *has* foreshadowed and I'm 
> being remarkably dense in overlooking it.  But I honestly don't see 
> any hints at a secret passion. (Is this the point of agree to 
> disagree?)
> 

Neri:
Probably. I think I've read enough SHIP threads to recognize this
point <g>. You might say that the H/H SHIPpers saw a lot of such
foreshadowing and got it wrong. I'd point out that the R/H and H/G
SHIPpers also saw a lot of foreshadowing and were dead right. Impasse. 

But I've noticed that, while you can't see the secret passion in
Severus' eyes, you seem to agree that Cissy was falling all over him
during the whole chapter. So let me ask you again my original question
#1: Why did Narcissa choose such tactics and how did she know it would
work on Snape? 

> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I just have a *really* hard time seeing Snape being this 
> *incredibly* petty.  Sign up to an Unbreakable Vow in the hopes that 
> the hottie might slip you some sugar?  What is Snape -- a drunk frat 
> boy?

Neri:
Well, I could point out that Snape has some documented history for
pettiness. Only I actually don't think he can be called petty here
when he makes such a sacrifice. Say tragic perhaps. The image of him
and Narcissa kneeling clasping hands while he makes his Vows strongly
suggests that his intentions are honorable. What is Narcissa is
actually the more complex question, but she's surely desperate about
her only son.

> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, Snape can go bat-poo crazy when his emotions are raised.  
> We've seen this in PoA and we saw it in OotP.  For Snape to make 
> this kind of massive sacrifice at such a critical time (and Snape 
> *must* realize how critical the times are no matter what side he's 
> on) for such a heart on his sleeve reason he'd have to be operating 
> on pure emotion.  And, IMO, that level of emotion is impossible for 
> Snape to hide.  He's never been able to before.
> 

Neri:
Gee, it's really not easy maneuvering between you
Snape-can't-act-to-save-his-life guys the Snape-is-an-Oscar-actor guys
<g>. I've already explained why Snape can't go into Shrieking Shack
mode here. It would ruin everything both within and outside the story.
But we get enough clues that he isn't merely calculating. His gentle
behavior towards Narcissa is a *huge* clue if contrasted with his
behavior towards anybody else throughout the series. Nor does he
manages to maintain absolute control during the Vows - before he makes
that crucial last Vow his hand twitches inside Narcissa'a hand, and he
hesitates before answering. This whole UV scene is dramatic and
powerfully symbolic. I would feel rather cheated as a reader if it
turns out that Snape was merely calculating here. It comes across to
me as a big Choice moment, and not merely a choice between plan A and
plan B. Not to mention that I'm yet to hear a plan A and plan B that
make sense to me. 

> > >>Neri:
> > <snip> He makes an          
> > Unbreakable Vow and he never even suggests that he's doing it for 
> > his friend Lucius.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> He doesn't have to, IMO.  Narcissa brings Lucius up, invokes their 
> friendship.  Snape agrees to protect the Malfoy scion, so I think 
> their friendship is implied.
> 

Neri:
Hmm. Since you talked before about "Snape turning away from Narcissa",
this is perhaps the time to note that the turning away part was
Snape's response to Narcissa mentioning *Lucius*:

********************************************
"This is vengeance for Lucius's mistake, I know it!"

Snape said nothing. He looked away from the sight of her tears as
though they were indecent, but he could not pretend not to hear her. 
*********************************************


And hey, in case that wasn't obvious enough, here it is again:


*********************************************
"That's why he's chosen Draco, isn't it?" she persisted. "To punish
Lucius?"
"If Draco succeeds," said Snape, still looking away from her, "he will
be honored above all others."

"But he won't succeed!" sobbed Narcissa.
*********************************************

Snape's message is silent, but it's obvious enough to me: "Your dear
Lucius is the one who got you into this, and I'm under no obligation
to mend his mistakes".


> Betsy Hp:
> My personal theory (at the moment) is that Dumbledore and Snape feel 
> they need something from the Malfoys (horcrux location information?) 
> and that's why Snape hopes to bind the Malfoy family to his side.  
> But he's got to be careful about it because he doesn't want 
> Voldemort to think his loyalty is compromised.  So I think Snape 
> thought this Vow would be a good way to get the Malfoys without 
> raising Voldemort's ire.  Or at least, not raise it too badly.  
> That's why I think Snape doesn't talk much about Lucius, he's on the 
> out's with Voldemort.  But he does show a certain amount of 
> compassion for the Malfoy family and their woes.
> 

Neri:
He does??? Can you quote that? I had the impression he's showing
compassion *only* for Narcissa (which for Snape is amazing enough by
itself). But when he's talking about Lucius, he's talking "flatly" and
cruelly, in the best Snape style:

*********************************************
"The Dark Lord will not be persuaded, and I am not stupid enough to
attempt it," said Snape flatly. "I cannot pretend that the Dark Lord
is not angry with Lucius. Lucius was supposed to be in charge. He got
himself captured, along with how many others, and failed to retrieve
the prophecy into the bargain. Yes, the Dark Lord is angry, Narcissa,
very angry indeed."

"Then I am right, he has chosen Draco in revenge!" choked Narcissa.
"He does not mean him to succeed, he wants him to be killed trying!"

When Snape said nothing, Narcissa seemed to lose what little
self-restraint she still possessed. Standing up, she staggered to
Snape and seized the front of his robes. Her face close to his, her
tears falling onto his chest, she gasped, "You could do it. You could
do it instead of Draco, Severus. You would succeed, of course you
would, and he would reward you beyond all of us —" 
*********************************************

And this is the moment when Snape becomes really gentle and
compassionate towards Narcissa. After he threw Lucius' fault in her
face and made her realize by herself who's the only one who can save
her son.


> Betsy Hp:
> So the question becomes, what does Snape's nickname reveal?  
> Frankly, I think the answer is still up in the air and depends 
> greatly on your view of Snape.  Personally, I think it was Snape 
> taking a hated family slur and making it his own.  Possibly with 
> Lily's help, since I doubt Snape came up with it on his own.  (I can 
> totally see Slughorn's fiesty Lily encouraging Snape to take pride 
> in being a half-blood and having fun with the name Prince.)
> 

Neri:
This is a fair interpretation, of course, only I don't know any canon
to support it. The whole connection between Snape and Lily at Hogwarts
is currently pure speculation, except for that "mudblood" in the
pensieve memory. And if it ever happened then it looks like Lily
failed, because grownup Snape was the head of house Slytherin for many
years and apparently kept the fact that he is a half-blood very quiet.
We needed to discover his privet book after six years to find out
about it.

> Betsy Hp:  
And if Snape *was* interested in the WW "aristocracy" 
> shouldn't he adopt at least *some* of the trappings?  Even while 
> hating himself a little for doing it?
>

Neri:
The trappings of the aristocracy are typically very expensive (or they
wouldn't be used by aristocracy alone), and I doubt Snape's means
extend to manors and house elves. But how about adopting the
aristocracy manner of speaking? Not only the words, but also the same
sneering, demeaning attitude that Lucius is using. 

Lucius (in Hagrid's hut): "you call this a house?"

Snape (about Wormtail): "we're not counting vermin, are we?"

I hear the same music there, and I doubt it's Lucius who learned it
from Snape.

 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I'm not saying that the nickname didn't mean anything to him.  If it 
> was given to him by one of his few close friends I'm sure it meant a 
> great deal to him.  Just as the Marauders signed their map with 
> their nicknames, Snape signed his book with his.
> 


Neri:
I knew we can agree on something <g>. The nickname is meaningful and
revealing. Of course it is. This is JKR we are talking about.


> Betsy Hp:
> Remus and Sirius still referred to each other as Moony and Padfoot 
> didn't they? Why should Snape be ashamed of his childhood nickname?  
> Yes, the proclamation was cheezy, but I think it was important (for 
> both Snape and JKR) to make very clear that those notes were his.  
> That combined with how well Harry marked the hiding place of the 
> book gives a pretty strong hint (IMO) that the half-blood Prince 
> will be of some importance in book 7. 
>

Neri:
The fact he made it clear is important, but also the *way* he did it.
I sincerely doubt that the grownup Sirius would ever shout to anyone
in any situation "I, the Black Padfoot!" but somehow it is in
character for grownup Snape. The Marauders' nicknames are cool, sort
of, but in a rather unassuming manner. Certainly there's nothing noble
or impressive about Mooney, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs. On the
Marauder Map they style themselves as "Messrs.". I'm not a native
English speaker but that sounds to me more commercial than
aristocratic. It's only Severus who styles himself a "Prince". 
 

> Betsy Hp:
> So Snape's madly in love with Narcissa.  So 
> what?  What does it do for the next book's plot?  What does it 
> explain (except for the Vow)? How does it effect Harry?  Does it 
> even clear up some of Snape's ambiguity?
> 

Neri:
Explaining the Vow is no small thing. It was the direct cause of
Dumbledore's death and Snape severing his relations with the Order.
Now, to know how does this affect Harry and the plot of Book 7 I first
need to know what the plot of Book 7 is, but I'd hazard a guess that
the effect would be considerable.


> > >>Neri:
> > First, you treat "Snape leaving Voldemort and joining with        
> > Dumbledore" as a given, while right now it is in considerable     
> > doubt.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> For me there is no doubt, that's true (no ESE!Snape argument has 
> made sense to me, yet).  

Neri:
When you came up with the title of this thread "ACID POPS vs
LOLLIPOPS" I was somehow assuming that we are going to evaluate these
two theories based on the canon we already know. But if we are
evaluating them based on fitting with Betsy's theories, then I fully
concede that LOLLIPOPS might be better.


> Betsy Hp:
But, even if you think Snape is ESE, 
> LOLLIPOPS provides a motive that *Dumbledore* may have found 
> credible.  And it's something that Dumbledore would have been 
> hesitant to share with Harry.
> 

Neri:
You know, if I was Harry, and Dumbledore would have told me that he
trusts Snape because Snape was in love with my mother, I would have
most probably been very angry for a week or two. But then after
cooling my head a bit I'd go to Dumbledore and ask him: Okay, perhaps
you had a reason to trust Snape *then*, when my mother was still alive
and he tried to save her. But my mother has been dead for many years
now. Why do you trust Snape *today*? 

And another big problem with LOLLIPOPS: If Snape was in love with
Lily, then his main reason to hate Sirius in PoA should have been that
Sirius betrayed Lily to her death and foiled Snape's attempt to save
her, right? You would expect Snape to try taking revenge of Sirius
personally for that, or at the very least have some privet word with
him, to let him know that Snape is avenging Lily before turning him in
to the dementors. In fact, not only Snape doesn't do this, but during
his entire famous explosion in the Shrieking Shack, and later in the
hospital wing, he doesn't mention Lily even once! It's Sirius, Lupin
and Pettigrew who are talking all the time about "Lily and James", but
Snape doesn't even say "the Potters" or "your parents". He only ever
mentions James. He shouts on Harry "you'd have died like *your
father*". When he rages about Sirius, it's because Sirius tried to
"murder" him when he was sixteen. But Lily practically doesn't count
for Snape. From his words you'd never even know that *two* people died
that night at GH. 

And after Snape had joined the Order and became a double agent again,
shouldn't he finally realize that it's indeed Wormtail, not Sirius,
who betrayed the woman he loved to her death? Yet in HBP it turns out
he's living with Wormtail in the same house! In Spinner's End Snape
surely shows contempt towards Wormtail, which he has ample reason to,
but how can he live with the person he should have hated most in the
world after Voldy? And it would have been so easy for Snape to take
revenge of Wormtail here. Just slip him a poison, get rid of the body,
and then tell Voldy that Wormtail defected or something.

In short, LOLLIPOPS as a theory for explaining Snape's motives and
Dumbledore's trust is full of gaping holes. It doesn't really
"explain" anything.


> 
> Betsy Hp:
> But it's only bangy for the Malfoys.  I doubt Harry could care two 
> tiddly winks about the Malfoy family drama.  The final book will 
> focus, I think, on Harry.  If Snape's story takes him out of Harry's 
> view than I doubt we'll see much of it in play.  And won't that be a 
> waste of a wonderfully mysterious and ambiguious character?
> 

Neri:
I'm sure JKR will find a way to connect the Malfoy family drama to
Harry. Most likely some of them and/or Snape would rebel against Voldy
and help Harry when he'd least expect it. Draco, for example, is
already foreshadowed to come back to the light. I don't think I'll
risk more predictions about which one of them would end up on which
side, dead or alive, and for what personal reasons, because the
possibilities are practically endless, but each of these possibilities
can make for a good Harry story. 


> Betsy Hp:
> Not if the book is about Harry it doesn't. <g>  Come on, even if 
> Snape is evil imagine him telling Harry the reason Voldemort didn't 
> want to kill Lily was that she was supposed to be a gift for Snape.  
> If that doesn't raise a Luke level scream of anger out of Harry, I 
> don't know what will. Though, of course, I'm holding out for 
> NobleHero!Snape in the end. *sighs wistfully* <g>
>

Neri:
Like several other members I suspect that in the climax there will be
only room for one Noble Hero of that caliber, and as you say this is a
book about Harry. I'm sure that we we'll get the final showdown
between Harry and Snape, and I suspect Snape would turn out at least
in part on Harry's side, but based on all their past matches I'll risk
a prediction that it will be about James, not about Lily. It's fathers
that JKR has a thing about, not mothers. But at least we still may get
that Luke level scream of anger from Draco. Some of us will be holding
out for that <g>.


Neri