Apologies and responsibility

[lady.indigo at gmail.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 139256

THANK you, everyone. Most of the replies here are things I'd 
gladly consider. (Eggplant, for heaven's sake, can you please 
actually read what I wrote?)

Sherry said:
>> In the same way, Harry doesn't need to tell Snape that Snape 
was right about James. Again, we have only one memory of Snape's 
to go by. We don't know what happened between James and Snape 
after this. How do we know James never tried to apologize? Isn't 
it good enough that James saved Snape's life? Isn't it even 
remotely possible he could have tried a number of times to 
apologize to Snape in the years after the pensieve incident? We 
just don't know. <<

Lady Indigo said:
Lupin said James continued to go after Severus long after he'd 
stopped bothering anyone else, if I remember correctly, and what 
Lily said confirmed that James also hexed *anyone* who happened to 
annoy him. Technically *I'm* still a teenager, and I still don't 
think that his actions can be excused in the name of immaturity. 
But you're right, Harry had no way of knowing any of this. And he 
wasn't really in the position to learn more, either.

Alla said:
>> Harry felt sorry for Snape, which I consider to be pretty big 
deal, again considering Snape's treatment of Harry all these 
years and I have no doubt that if Snape would not have threw him 
out, Harry would have told him just that.

Just as he told Albus that he WAS sorry for looking in his 
Pensieve. <<

Lady Indigo said:
Harry did feel sorry for Snape and I do think that's a big step 
in the right direction. I think it was wrong though expected for 
Snape to throw him out, especially as violently as he did, but 
of course if I were talking about what was to be expected I'd 
probably have conceeded to you all long ago. :)

Dumbledore's an entirely different story. Of course Harry acknowledges the wrong he did to Dumbledore, because he respects 
Dumbledore. There's no high road to be taken there, there's 
nothing that has the chance of being smoothed over, because 
Dumbledore makes incredibly allowances for everyone's failings. 
With Snape, of course, it's more difficult, which is why 
everyone's arguing that it shouldn't/wouldn't have happened and 
why at the same time I think it would have been beneficial if it 
had, at the very least to Harry's maturity.


Alla said:
>> <snip> Who would have apologised to man who made his life 
hell for five years, even if the boy's actions were wrong, wrong, wrong?

<snip>

See, since I expect Harry to forgive Snape at the end, to me it 
would be action of the saint already and difficult enough to 
swallow.

I would much prefer Harry NOT to behave like one till the end of 
the books at least.

I much prefer normal teenager's reactions :-) <<


Lady Indigo said:

Ahh, and here's where we're getting somewhere.

Yes, Harry's not a saint and I actually really appreciate that 
about him. I don't see apologizing about the Pensieve, at least, 
as candidacy for sainthood though. (We seem to put different 
weight on it, and that's probably something we're going to get 
nowhere on in terms of agreeing.) It *was* wrong, after all, and 
I don't think who he did it to excuses him. But it would have 
been going beyond the call of duty, beyond the expected, while 
showing some major progress on two issues that really trouble me. 

There are only two things which bother me about Harry, who I otherwise love as a character: his anger, which continues to 
reach dangerous levels even when we're down to the last book, and 
his tendency to do a lot of rulebreaking without much remorse or 
learning from his mistakes. I'm not talking about necessary 
rulebreaking, like the SS/PS stuff, or rulebreaking to fight 
against unfair things, like going to Hogsmeade in PoA. 

I'm talking about looking in Dumbledore's Pensieve, apologizing, 
then going right back and doing it to Snape, and what I thought 
was the most disturbing thing: doing a slightly less malicious 
version of what Lockhart (who I believe someone here described as 
a sociopath) does by accepting the full credit, elevated status, 
and nifty prizes that come with cheating using the HBP's book. 
Harry saw no problem with his using the book, not even towards the 
end of things or after he was caught. The issue of him cheating 
was never resolved at all, and that continues to bug me.

If Harry's progressed to doing the kind of thing that in the adult world would in some cases get you arrested, he has a lot to learn. Apologizing to Snape would have gotten him closer to learning it. 
And having that moment of soberness in which he could do it would mean he could safely temper his anger, too. Yes, it seems that 
won't be dealt with until the last book, and in light of the 
events of HBP perhaps it shouldn't, but it still bothers me, 
whether or not that's a failing of mine. I'd like to see Harry's 
growing up throughout the story consist of more than learning not 
to scream at his friends because they were doing what they thought 
was best for him.

And I never said he needs to be especially grateful to Snape, or 
even grateful at all. What has Snape done for him, exactly, since 
saving his life during SS?

lupinlore said:
>> In these kinds of situations it's impossible, on the level of 
real and actual interaction, to abstract feelings and response 
from context. You can't talk, realistically and practically, about 
one person's guilt and actions without implying very strongly 
messages about the guilt, or lack thereof, of the other party. 
Once again, life just isn't that way and people just don't think 
or act that way. <<

Lady Indigo said:
I think to a large degree that's true (in the very strong cases 
you listed, especially) but that in the case of the Pensieve it's 
a bit extreme. Snape and Harry don't equal Israel and Palestine. 
One invasion of privacy does not equal five years of emotional 
abuse, barely even calls it into play. Discussing it on its own 
merit - how clearly Harry was wrong there, how strongly this one 
wrong affected Snape - doesn't mean the rest has to even come up. 
If Snape takes it as an admission of blame for everything on 
Harry's part...well, that's Snape's issue, and Snape certainly 
twists everything that happens to his own perceptions. But Harry 
can decide what it means privately beforehand, and I have no doubt 
it'd involve a lot of inwardly thinking 'and now I'm completely 
right again, you bastard'. As for Harry's father and all of that 
mess, see below.

sgirnius said:
>> <snip> I think that an apology regarding this one incident 
(really a fairly unique case where Harry was in the wrong, IMO) 
would have also been a fine opportunity to confront Snape 
regarding their relationship all these years. Along the lines of, 
"I am sorry I peeked in your Pensieve, Sir. It was wrong of me 
to do so." Followed by "I understand that you and my father 
really did not get along. That is between the two of you. It need 
not affect our relationship." <<

Lady Indigo said:
And you know, I think I'd gladly even let it be reduced to this. While "My father acted like a bully" is a simple fact Harry and 
Snape can agree on, I admit it's loaded and most people can't 
detach themselves enough to discuss it without that weight. What 
everyone seems to miss is the other half of that, which I don't 
think Harry should ever leave out: "You had problems with my dad. 
I am not my dad." This calls Snape out for his own immaturity, 
it puts things into the open air instead of letting them stew, 
and I think it's one of the biggest reasons I'm at all bothered 
by Harry's part in this. Harry coming of age means Harry beginning 
to handle things the way that adults would. 

- Lady Indigo