[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Hagrid and Animals

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 143794

 > Magpie:
>
> LOL--yeah, pretty much.  There's a reason that amongst the people who 
> really
>
> have to take the classes, Snape is actually more popular.
>

> Sherry now:
>
> If i had to pick, I'd take Hagrid over a sadist like Snape any day of the
> year.  i had a sadist for a teacher, and no, he didn't inspire me to try
> harder or any other such nonsense.  I also had some tough teachers who 
> were
> not sadists and could get the very best out of me.  i actually like being
> challenged.  But I had to suffer a verbally and emotionally abusive 
> teacher
> for all of high school.  I got an ulcer because of that, among other 
> things.
> No child should ever have to tolerate Snape's kind of abuse.  I'd never 
> let
> a child of mine tolerate him.  I'd home school my kids before I'd let that
> happen.  But I'd let them take classes from Hagrid in a heartbeat.  He's
> loyal, lovable, innocent and would die to protect them.  ... and in
> fact, I'm slightly astonished that people think Hagrid is worse than 
> Snape,
> if you take those two situations side by side.

Magpie:

If it comes down to sending our own kids to class, we'd have to take the 
kids' feelings into consideration--though I might overrule a kid if his 
safety was at stake.  (Unfortunately kids wind up having to protect Hagrid a 
lot when they shouldn't.)

If my kid told me about that first class and said it was Malfoy's fault I'd 
probably first ask if the kid is alright, then explain to them exactly what 
responsibilities a teacher had and not to get too cocky in imagining that 
they were too smart to ever make a mistake like that.

If my kid came home and said, "The teacher keeps making us deal with lots of 
fanged animals and people get burned and stung and one kid got attacked 
while he was petting the animal and bled all over the grass and had to get 
stitches," I'd probably say, "What is this maniac doing?" not "You shouldn't 
be scared of dangerous animals that could very well harm you.  If he got 
hurt he did something to deserve it--I told you to watch out for the Skrewts 
that Hagrid ordered you to shove (respectfully) into a box for school."

Nor would I respond to a kid who was genuinely scared and hurt by Snape by 
saying, "He's not serious. You're silly to be scared of a genuinely scary 
man who calls you names, says you'll never amount to anything, and 
threatened to poison your toad."  But Neville's gran probably would.

I know it's kind of pointless to apply real life standards, but if Malfoy is 
supposed to act the way "we" would around animals (and Malfoy's behavior is 
absolutely fine by those standards), then Hagrid would have to act that way 
too--by real life standards, he's just not responsible.

Canonically, Hagrid is less popular a teacher. Even Hermione has more 
problems with Hagrid than she does with Snape.  Snape doesn't even seem to 
be an issue with many students. Does this make Snape the better person?  No, 
but that's a whole different issue.

Jen Reese:
 I do think if Hogwarts is open and there is a COMC class next year, he will 
have one student: Luna.
Someone who understands the beauty of the creatures and doesn't mind the 
danger.

Magpie:

Though Luna, in her first scene, angers the Trio by announcing that "we in 
Ravenclaw think Hagrid's a bit of a joke."

Alla:
And still nobody else gets hurt, NOBODY but Malfoy, who we know did not 
listened and most likely plotted to disrupt the lesson.

Magpie:

The lesson ends after Malfoy gets hurt.  Ever since then everyone has been 
properly on their guard (and still suffering stings and burns without 
warning).  Neville is the only student who seems terrified of Snape--that 
doesn't mean Snape has nothing to do with Neville being scared.

Alla:

Hagrid NEVER to the best of my recollection shows the desire to harm 
ANYBODY,

Magpie:

The joke with Hagrid is that he's not intending to hurt people but doesn't 
get it when they are or that they could be--like when Ron gets hurt in PS 
and Hagrid scolds him for it, or Dean gets burnt and Hagrid just says, 
"Yeah, they do that."

Alla:
 and I think it is very telling that the one who gets hurt
during the lesson is Malfoy, who to my mind was needed a dose of  karmic 
punishment especially for CoS and badly. And he gets it.


Magpie:

Telling that there is an author god who needed Malfoy to be the one who got 
it, not so much telling that Hagrid really did a good job--Neville was not 
doing too well with his hippogriff either.  The kids in canon do not seem 
that confident that only bad kids will get hurt by the animal--which is 
good, because that would be a foolish thing to think. I don't know what 
karmic punishment it is that Malfoy is in for due to CoS, but I think the 
better answer for him in that book HBP, when he gets his wish and is helping 
the Heir and it's a nightmare, and the only person he can talk to is the 
Muggleborn ghost of the Heir's first victim.  That's a satisfying follow-up, 
imo, because it's about Draco facing his own ideas and not just random 
smacking around which probably won't be enough no matter how often he takes 
his lumps.  Not that JKR doesn't ever do that, but I don't think everything 
is always about that, especially since this kind of "punishment" is not the 
type that seems to lead anywhere.

Alla:

Should Hagrid made sure that all kids heard his instructions? Yes, I suppose 
he should have done so, but again it is very telling to me that the one who 
gets hurt was plotting to disrupt the lessons, if narrator is correct of 
course

Magpie:

Yes, he should have done so, absolutely.  That's what Hagrid--the 
teacher--is supposed to be doing there. Even if the narrator isn't correct 
about what Malfoy was talking about in that scene, he still wouldn't have 
heard him.

Alla:
(And I don't believe that Neville EVER plotted to disrupt Snape lesson).

Magpie:

No, but if he did I don't think that would make him deserve having his toad 
poisoned (not that Snape did that). But Snape's class is safer, so missing 
an instruction isn't as dangerous in the same way.  Malfoy isn't even a 
particularly disruptive student--even in this class.  He thinks he's 
following the instructions quite well and is a big success, then he tries to 
show off.  Could have been Ron very easily, or any number of boys from my 
eighth grade class.  Far from its being Malfoy who's hurt being proof that 
Hagrid's a good teacher, I think it being Malfoy is there to add to the 
dilemma: the Trio wants Hagrid to be a better teacher, because it's Malfoy.

Alla:

But again, this is IMO the key, I believe that JKR has much higher opinion 
of Hagrid's character as a "person" than she has of Snape's  and that is why 
she will let him get away with his fallings as a teacher.

Magpie:

Of course, but we're not talking about him as a human being, but as a 
teacher. A discussion of what Hagrid does wrong in class has nothing to do 
with how he is as a person in other situations.

a_svirn:

Well, Neville didn't make much progress with his hippogriff, still he wasn't 
in any danger.

Magpie:

Yes, he was.  Hippogriffs are dangerous.  And Neville is *exactly* the kind 
of kid (along with cocky Malfoy) who wouldn't be shoved into a paddock with 
big animals and left on his own by a responsible teacher.  In real life 
Neville is the one that was at the most risk because of his panic.

Magpie:
>
> That's hardly the attitude with which to approach a class of 13-
year-olds on
> dangerous animals.  I went to classes involving less-dangerous
animals as a
> kid and believe me, that was not the way it went, especially since
no class
> of kids or adults has everyone listening all the time.  But even
if Hagrid
> was being heard, that's not the utmost clarity at all. That's more
the way
> you warn your friend to not touch your beer than the way you teach
a kid to
> deal with a giant fanged predator.

a_svirn:
I confess, I am a little baffled with your argumentation. First, you 
acknowledge that the children in question are around 13 year-old, and then 
you say something about warning not to touch your teddy-bear - surely an 
altercation that belongs to the nursery?

Magpie:

I said *beer*--as in, saying "it will be the last thing you'll do" is more 
the kind of vague threat I'd associate with casually talking to a friend to 
not touch your beer when you went to the restroom than a teacher supervising 
kids with wild animals where there was actual danger involved.  This 
situation called for a far more detailed and serious lesson before the kids 
got anywhere near the hippogriffs--much less tossed onto their backs. 
Actually, they shouldn't be seeing hippogriffs at all, because they're far 
too advanced.

a_svirn:
What's more, with your friend you are on the equal social footing, which 
makes his or her utterances somewhat lacking in the illocutive power 
department. When, however, an adult, and a teacher at that, tells
you - very clearly

Magpie:

I went to zoo camp for two years as a kid--teachers were more clear and more 
serious about proper behavior around small non-predators than Hagrid is in 
this moment.  He's just zooming on to the part he likes--petting the 
animals.

a_svirn:
 - that insulting hippogriffs may well prove
fatal, you have only yourself to blame if you disregard his warning.

Magpie:

This is the part of the job interview where the principal would probably 
thank you for coming by and suggest you consider a career other than 
supervising 13-year-olds as they work with large wild animals.  As a teacher 
you are accepting more responsibility than that.

> Magpie:
> I definitely don't think this was the way Hagrid was thinking.  It
doesn't
> seem like he even considered the idea that someone would get hurt
to prove
> his point, he just didn't (continues to not) consider the animals
hurting
> people as a possibility he really has to focus on.  If this was
Hagrid's
> attitude it sounds like getting somebody hurt was the point of the
class.

a_svirn:
Then why he was so devastated having achieved his ambition?

Magpie

Because he was surprised at this horrible turn of events that he never 
prepared for.

-m