Snape: Crime and Punishment

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 143815

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" <bob.oliver at c...> wrote:
>
> Steve wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>
> > Many people..., are insisting  that Snape suffer in some way
> > for the way .... Many futher feel that the book will not make 
> > sense if this doesn't come to pass.
> 
> LUPINLORE:
> 
> Oh, absolutely. Snape must be punished for the books to reach
> a balance point. Now, there are a lot of ways to get there. 
> ... Snape, Wormtail, Percy, others will almost certainly be 
> dealt with an a paragraph or a condensed scene. ...
> 
> STEVE:
> >  
> > I'm here to say, that it is very likely that it will NOT come
> to pass. Why? Because, in real life, this rarely happens. 
> 
> LUPINLORE:
> 
> ... And terrorists very often escape punishment as well. But I 
> think it would be a terrible move on JKR's part to let Voldemort
> off the hook. No, Snape and Voldemort are not the same.
> But both must be punished for their sins.
> 

bboyminn:

Oh this has gotten so difficult because this thread has gotten so
complex and deals with so many diverse facets. I'll try my best to
hold it all together.

Absolutely, Voldemort must be punished because he is irredeemably evil
and corrupt. Snape, on the other hand, is still up for grabs, and as I
will point out later, will be punished in a Karmic sense, even if he
is not punished in the formal sense. Still if you read what I said
closely, I said Snape would not be directly punished for his treatment
of Harry, but I did imply that there would be some punishment for his
killing of Dumbledore. Even with that said, under the very best of
circumstances, Snape will suffer a Karmic punishment that covers
everything. 

> >STEVE:
> > 
> The universal appeal of the books is that they are morally 
> ambiguous. The good guy doesn't always win, the bad guys 
> aren't clearly defined, and it isn't always fair; just like
> real life.
> 
> LUPINLORE:
> 
> Is that their "universal" appeal? I'm not so sure they will
> be morally ambiguous, of if they are that such is their
> appeal at all (which isn't very universal, the vast majority
> of people in the world wouldn't give you a set of fingernail 
> clippings for the Potterverse). Many people think that in the
> end the morality will be very clear and quite poetic, or karmic
> to use one of Alla's terms.
> 

bboyminn:

Well my comment on 'universal appeal' refered to an aspect of the
stories. True they are not univeral in the sense that every man,
woman, and child on the face of the earth has read and loved them, but
that is a very unrealistic level of 'universal appeal'. 

On a more realistic level, the Harry Potter series is probably the
most widely read, generally love, and money making series of books
that has every existed. It's appeal transends national borders and
world religions. It is probably translated into more languages that
any book other than the Bible, and while I can't prove it, it may even
be translated into more languages than the Bible. So, while that isn't
universal in the absolute sense of the word, I think it more than
qualifies in the more general sense of the word. 

Again, when I said 'morally ambiguous', I was making a shortcut
comment about the general grittiness and harsh realities of the books.
 Unlike Sunday School TBN morality tales; life in the Potter world in
not black and white. Good and bad are not crystal clear. Right and
wrong is not an easy choice. JKR is a master of shades of grey, and
those realistic shades of grey are what make her world so endearing to
so many readers. 

Little kids read these books and they see Harry struggling with the
things that we all struggle with, and they see him sometime failing in
his struggles as we all also do, but in the end, as we would all
/hope/ to do, we see Harry make the morally right decision. It is this
fact that what is morally right is not crystal clear, that it is
indeed a flawed and anquished struggle, that allow such a mass of
readers world wide crossing many diverse cultural boundaries to
identify with these books.

I've said before in many different forms that it is these shades of
grey and moral struggle and occassional moral failure and ultimately
an agonizing and difficult choice for the greater good that gives
these books their /generally/ universal appeal.

> LUPINLORE:
> ...edited...
> 
> STEVE:
> 
> To some extent ... Snape pushing Harry hand Ron's heads down 
> and wacking them with a composition notebook.... But the 
> reality is, that Snape's action in the film were extremely 
> mild compared to real British schools of not that long ago.
> 
> LUPINLORE:
> 
> Yes, and slavery was allowed in the U.S. until 1865
> and Jim Crow laws until the 1960s. Does this excuse the WW 
> for keeping slaves (...)? The mores of a backward and corrupt 
> society provide no defense and do not excuse Snape from 
> punishment, such is a special case of "Ignorance of the law 
> is no excuse."
> 

bboyminn:

So many issues, it hard to decide which one I should respond to.

First, slavery and Jim Crow laws hardly comparable to corporal
punishment in British boarding schools. The truth is corporal
punishment was also very common in American schools, just not as
recently as British schools. But we and they have become more
enlightened. Yet in the fullest sense, the wizard world is not living
in an equally enlightened world. 

Now it is true, we never really see any physical punishment at the
school, so in some sense, the wizard world does have modern
enlightenment. But at the same time, remnants of the old ways run just
below the surface. We see how quickly Filch was able to bring out his
whips and shackles when Umbridge took over. 

The point is, that while anyone would see Snape's treatment of Harry
and Neville as /not very nice/, and others might see it as down right
mean, in the context of British Schools, it would not be seen as that
extreme. As I said, mean nasty teachers exist in the real world; and
mean nasty irrational people exist in the real world, these are just
harsh realities that we have to learn to deal with. JKR said as much.

So, I use this as my basis for saying that Snape will never be
formally punished on-page for the way he treated Harry and Neville.
Plus, I think Snape's classroom action are too mild to waste page time
on. Yes, he's mean, but the world is mean, and you need to get used to it.

That said, I never said Snape wouldn't be punished for killing
Dumbledore, and I implied that he would be karmically punished. More
on that later.

> 
> STEVE:
> <SNIP>
> > 
> > I think accusations of /abuse/ on his part are not
> so much a matter of reality, as they are a matter of overblown,
> overhyped, ultra-liberal thinking. (Sorry, I know that stings a bit, 
> and for the record, I do consider myself a liberal; just not an 
> overhyped ultra-liberal.)
> 
> LUPINLORE:
> Well, I will have to most severely disagree. Child abuse fits
> quite  well, IMO, even if it is not as bad as many other
> situations. I do like being grouped with ultra-liberals, however.
> I generally get put on the opposite end of the spectrum.
> 

bboyminn:

Again, we are into using that impossible word 'Abuse'. I will say that
Snape's actions were /abusive/ in nature. I will say that by the
modern liberal standards, Snape's actions would not be tolerated. But
I just can't reach the level of flat out calling his actions Abuse
with a capital 'A', nor can I apply that measure to the Dursleys.
Though, I think the Dursleys come closer to Abuse with a capital 'A'
than Snape's action.

Even in the perfect field of flowers called life, we must accept that
we will encounter a torn bush here and there. That's just the way life is.


> 
> STEVE:
> 
> > In short, in real life, the bad guys don't always
> >get punished. 
> > 
> 
> LUPINLORE:
> 
> Nope. And that's why we read novels. If I wanted to be caught 
> in the dreary realities of the unjust world I'd sit in front 
> of C-Span, ....
> 

bboyminn:

But part of the escape of books is to live another person's life in
those pages, and to see them struggle with life's dilemmas. It is in
their struggle and heroic actions that we see ourselves and learn the
deeper lessons that help us in our own life. 

In a sense, which is more important, to see the hero win in the end,
or to see the villain lose? You seem to be saying that the villain
losing is more important, and if that is true for you, then so be it.
Personally, I am more interested in the struggling to win and
ultimately succeeding of the hero.


> STEVE:
> 
> > Let's see if I can add one more short note about Snape. I 
> > have already said the even under the most ideal 
> > circumstances, the wizard world will never forgive or forget
> > that Snape killed Dumbledore. 
> 
> LUPINLORE:
> 
> Which has no pertinence whatsoever to the abuse situation. Snape
> must be punished for the way he has abused Harry and Neville, 
> quite regardless of his status with regard to Dumbledore or what 
> happened in the tower.
> 
> STEVE:
> > 
> > I do believe that Snape is the only source of help for Harry
> > in finding the Horcrux. That knowledge reside inside
> > Voldemort's inner circle, and it is information that is held
> > by an EXTREMELY FEW people.Now that Snape is trusted above all 
> > others, I think he will help Harry.  
> 
> LUPINLORE:
> 
> Which would be lazy and cheesey writing, in addition
> to making a hero out of a child abuser. ...
> 

bboyminn:

Apparently you missed the part where I flat out said Snape would not
be a hero. An as far as cheesy writing, it could be, but then again,
if handled right, it won't be. 

I'm of the belief that Snape is still on the side of good, but being
on the side of good doesn't make Snape a nice guy; remember - shades
of grey. Perhaps you remember my reference to Snape dooming himself
for all time.

This brings us to Snape's Karmic Punishment. Let us take the absolute
best case scenario. First, I think Snape will die, and dying is it's
own Karmic punishment. But that's not relevant to the current
argument, so let's forget it for the moment. 

Snape has commited an unforgivable act in killing Dumbledore. Now
again we assume for the moment that Snape explains that he made a
sacrifice of Dumbledore's life because he was in a no-win situation.
Either they all died, and all was lost; or Snape commited his terrible
act, that bad as it was, contributed to the winning of the war and the
downfall of Voldemort. Remember for the moment, these are merely
supposition to set up a later point. Now, having hear his story, the
wizard world shows him leniency, and he serves a few years in prison,
or if you wish, for sake of arguement, Snape goes free.

Now we must ask what Snape's life will be like after this. I say he
will be an outcast. He will be utterly shunned by the bulk of the
wizard world. As I clearly said, the wizard world will never forgive
him for killing Dumbledore. Even later history and an accounting of
the circumstances will never let Snapes escape his infamy. As I said,
Snape has doomed himself for all time. He will suffer to his dying day
for his act. When he walks down the street, if he even dare venture
out in daylight, wizards and witches will turn their faces away, or
look at him with unmistakable distain. Like I said he will be shunned
and alone, and being made an outcast in the society he so greatly
sacrificed for will be his Karmic punishment.

Just because the many characters in the books like Snape and Umbridge
don't face formal accusations and associated punishment doesn't mean
the cruel hand of fate won't punish them in some karmic way.

So, what you are saying is you will settle for nothing less than
in-your-face direct confrontational accusation and punishment, and
what I am saying is that there is simply not enough book left to waste
time on that; yet, we all know that what goes 'round - comes 'round.
Life will punish these people in ways the courts never could.

In my scenario, the rest of Snape's life will be his constant
punishment for his actions.

As to Snape helping Harry, I see a lot of that happening off-page.
Since Harry will not willingly accept or trust Snape's help, Snape
will have to find some other way. Further, Snape will only help pave
the way for Harry's final vanquishing of Voldemort as will many other
people. The fact that Snape helped doesn't in anyway undo what he has
done. It may contribute to the mitigating and leniency, but nothing
will ever undo Snape's previous actions. 

Personally, I believe that in or near the final battle Snape will be
killed. But even his death in the aid of Harry, while is may soften
many attitudes towards him, will not undo what he has done. In life or
death, Snape's actions have doomed him for all time. I'd say that adds
up to punishment.

Just a few (he said sarcastically) thoughts.

Steve/bboymonn