[HPforGrownups] Re: In Defense of Hagrid-and some Snape

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 144007

>> kchuplis:
What I don't see is how this class, this school can
> be compared to modern day "muggle" institutions, which is what I am seeing 
> in these
> debates.

Magpie:

I don't need it to conform to the rules of our own schools, I'm just stating 
that Hagrid as the teacher did stuff that contributed to what happens in his 
class as well--particularly when he himself decides to go against the 
school's guidelines because it's more interesting for him.  Btw, I also 
think that Snape has some responsibility for Neville's disasters in Potions 
when he frightens him, because his behavior actually does effect 
Neville--though that's a different situation entirely.  I just tend to see 
life as a series of people doing stuff that effects what happens.  Nobody 
escapes.

kchuplis:
> I also do not see how Malfoy gets off in the ongoing arguments here for 
> being
> blatantly to blame for his own injury.

Magpie:

Nobody has once let Malfoy off for what he actually did. Everyone has 
acknowledged what happens in the class, that Malfoy is whispering to his 
friends at the point when an important instruction is given, and that he 
tries to show off and that's what gets him attacked.  What I'm 
seeing--still--is the opposite--Hagrid getting off for his own actions that 
led to disaster.  He is the only person being described as "in no way 
responsible."  In a way that no teacher at Hogwarts except him as ever even 
tried to do.  Yes, they're wizards and yes the classes are more dangerous. 
They're still based somewhat on actual teachers.  Which is why the text 
always points out how much better Grubbly-Plank is.


kchuplis:
I do not see how one can condemn Hagrid and not
> condemn virtually every aspect of Hogwarts for putting students at the 
> possible risk
> of injury.

Magpie:

No one has "condemned" him at all.  "He made some mistakes" is not 
condemning.

kchuplis:

Hagrid's class is not a vacuum.

Magpie:
Though it's becoming closer to one as people drop it.

> kchuplis
> I've also had teachers that were plenty bendable about rules. The point is 
> that being
> extraordinarily severe isn't a clear pass to "good teacher practices".

Magpie:
No, it's not. Though Hagrid can be severe when he wants to be, usually when 
he feels personally defensive.

kchuplis:
Not to mention
> that ear pulling can have serious consequences of itself. To be quite 
> honest, living in
> fear of the 4th grade teacher did nothing toward furthering my learning 
> but I learned
> plenty from teachers of whom I was not afraid.

Magpie:
But the kids do live in fear of Hagrid in terms of being nervous in his 
class.  That's the joke--that he's a joke as a teacher.  They don't respect 
him or trust him as a teacher.

kchuplis:
> kchuplis:
> I'm a little confused with this statement seeing as how Harry and Neville 
> rarely come
> off as brilliant *in class*. They both are outstanding at nerve in real 
> life situations,
> however.

Magpie:
Their brilliance in this class is due to Hagrid's faultless planning and 
presentation.

> kchuplis:
> Poor Malfoy. I can think of no other instances where he was given 
> detention and
> plenty where Harry

Magpie:
??? And now we're off on another topic again.  What do Malfoy's detentions 
that we may or may not see (he gets one from McGonagall is the only other 
one I can think of) have to do with anything?  I didn't once say that Malfoy 
shouldn't have been in that detention (though perhaps you don't think he 
does, since it makes him afraid of Hagrid?).  What does that have to do with 
Hagrid of the illegal dragon that bites Ron in that book?

kchuplis:
 Feel free to point out all the other times that Malfoy was punished for his
> behaviour.)  This is scapegoating?

Magpie:

Um, no, that's a totally different thread. Malfoy does often suffer the 
consequences of his own actions.  I have never tried to make Malfoy into a 
completely passive character at the mercy of things beyond his control.  I 
don't like it when people do that with characters--including Hagrid.

> kchuplis:
> Malfoy's a jerk and does NOT get the blame. I think that is more to the 
> point. In the
> Hippogriff incident he is directly to blame for his injury. He is often a 
> jerk other times
> and is let off because it is under Snape's watch.

Magpie:
And plenty of times he does get the blame because he's under the watch of 
everyone else!  And when he doesn't get the blame it's usually chalked to 
someone being unfair in protecting him.  He is most certainly blamed 
outright by plenty of people for what happened with Buckbeak, and ultimately 
Buckbeak goes free and Hagrid keeps his job.  Btw, I don't even usually 
think in terms of "getting the blame."  I just think people do stuff that 
results in things happening.

> kchuplis
> Well, that is certainly why Ron did not go to Pomfrey. This is, however, 
> some how laid
> at Hagrid's doorstep.

Magpie:
Somehow?   Yes, it's a real mystery.

kchuplis:
Why is Hagrid constantly responsible for the students
> behaviour? Malfoy (whom Hagrid DID whip off to the infirmary immediately) 
> made an
> injury out to be worse than it is and Ron downplayed one (to his own 
> disadvantage.)
> It's Hagrid's fault that Ron values his friendship?
I highly doubt Hagrid said "now don't
> go running to Pomfrey" after being bitten by the dragon, and no, he didn't 
> frog march
> Ron up there either, but that is off page so I guess we can assume Hagrid 
> laid a guilt
> trip on Ron. I didn't read it that way in Ron's response about the bite. 
> And Hagrid's
> actions do not appear to be hidden from Ron as Ron appeared to be fully 
> sensible of
> Hagrid's blindness on the danger of the dragon. His words make it appear 
> that way at
> least. And yet the only responsible party is Hagrid. These kids aren't 5 
> they are 11 or
> 12 year olds with more than your average exposure to this type of thing 
> (aside from
> Harry who did not grow up around it, but still seems to understand the 
> gravity of
> most situations). I also don't believe parents live in total oblivioun to 
> the dangers of
> Hogwarts, or have seen no real evidence of this. Perhaps the ones who are 
> muggles
> only. but still, these arguments seem to indicate Hagrid is the only 
> person at fault in
> any of these situations. That's baffling to me.

Magpie:

Let me just make sure I've got it: an adult who is being paid to protect 
children at their school gets an illegal animal, enlists the help of an 
11-year-olds to care for it, yells one when he is bitten by it, takes no 
interest in the injury and keeps quiet while they receive punishment when 
they're caught helping him.

You're right, I can't see any reason people should be focusing on Hagrid 
here.  He's a model adult.  Only a crazy Muggle with a lawyer would consider 
him the more responsible party there. (Note me nobly resisting any allusion 
to child-predator mentality.)
.
This, however, is not the type of reasoning I am using regarding Malfoy. 
Malfoy gets blame from me for his own actions.

As does Hagrid with Ron, as the adult, the one on staff at the school, the 
one who's supposed to be protecting kids. Hagrid chooses to invert this 
relationship at every opportunity, which is why he doesn't get the respect 
of a teacher--even a teacher like Snape.

-m