[HPforGrownups] Re: Who does Snape really hate?/Abuse/punishment

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 144092

Wan Norjihan:
> In the first five books, it looks like Snape likes Draco very
> much, or is it really?  Because in the HBP their relationship
> seems to deviate, Draco no longer try to get Snape's attention
> because he doubt Snape's true identity and loyalty.  And Snape
> no longer treats Draco the way he used to, is it because Lucius
> is now in Azkaban, so he need not to pretend anymore.

Magpie:

I've never seen this pretending on Snape's side, and I definitely don't see 
it in HBP, when he's trying to protect Draco. Harry is angry at Dumbledore 
in OotP, but that doesn't mean their relationship is a lie.  Draco in HBP is 
rebelling against his father figure and trying to be the man--he seems 
unable to bring himself to challenge Lucius, but Snape is the next best 
thing.  Yet Snape is still trying to protect him, even as Draco is angry 
about it because he sees (somewhat correctly) that people are trying to keep 
him a child.  When Harry overhears their conversation he's shocked at the 
way Draco is speaking to Snape, not vice versa--Snape doesn't sound like he 
particularly dislikes Draco in that scene to me.  He sounds like an adult 
impatient with the kid he's having to deal with, but his overall concern 
seems to be concern for him and what he's doing rather than a personal 
dislike.  I mean, we don't know much of the personal Draco/Snape 
relationship, but it seems close to me--the kind of close that makes it 
dramatic given what's happening.

mcjuels:

Am I the only muggle on this list to think that it is no big deal when 
students get injured?

Magpie:

As someone arguing (ad nauseum!) in the Hagrid/hippogriff thing, I've never 
said it was a big deal when students get injured most of the time, this case 
included.  I said I thought part of the idea with Hagrid's first day was 
that he made mistakes which contributed to the class ending with the 
students wandering back to the castle shaken while he went white in the face 
and brought a screaming Malfoy to the infirmary.  Rowling has said the kids 
"see through" teachers who abuse their power like Snape, and she's right.  I 
think with Hagrid she's showing the opposite extreme by having a teacher who 
shows cracks in a different way.  Malfoy's injury is not the point at 
all--it's far from the most serious we've seen.  Malfoy himself gets far 
worse in HBP and we don't hear a peep out of him about it, iirc.

Sometimes injuries are more significant, however.  Montague's, Ron's and 
Katie's, for instance. (And Draco's in the Sectumsempra scene too--but not 
in the sense that any of the people who directly caused these injuries are 
going to be brought up on charges or expelled within the story.)

lagattalucianese:
> As for Snape, as you so aptly pointed out, the analogy really is to rape. 
> Sirius' penchant isn't for boys per se, or for sex per se (though he 
> obviously isn't adverse to a little whoopsie-do on the  side if one is 
> offered), it's for power and control. He just can't
> stand it that this weedy little half-blood kid stands up to him, and  like 
> your average fifteen-year-old male, he uses sex as a bludgeon to  get back 
> at him and humiliate him.

Magpie:

But what in canon links Sirius to sex at all?  The only connection between 
Sirius and sex at all is Harry's noticing that he's handsome and that girls 
look at him while he's unaware of them, that I remember.  Isn't it James who 
decides to flip Snape upsidedown?  I thought that scene was mostly supposed 
to be reminiscent of the QWC where the DEs flipped the Muggles into the air.

There is a sexual aspect to the idea, of course, because Snape is being 
exposed and humiliated.  But I don't think the idea is that Snape is an 
innocent being defiled, especially since he's the one who seems to have 
invented the spell.  Presumably he was humiliating people too--and he 
probably taught it to the DEs as well.

It's just that the added wrinkle that Sirius was actually a sexual predator 
to the point of raping a boy in his class (surprised Sirius made it through 
school with all his bits intact if that was the case, given Sectumsempra) 
and might prey on children is a big claim that requires some concrete 
evidence.  I, too, don't remember Molly escorting the kids everywhere in 
Grimmauld Place, and as to the idea of worrying that something might jump 
out at them if she didn't well...in that house, something certainly might 
have!  I suspect her main job there was to cook.

Sydney:
I think that's JKR's great wisdom, that you CAN'T get your own back from 
another person;  you have to find your peace inside yourself, independent of 
what's happening in the soul of the person you have a
conflict with.

Magpie:

Yes. If Snape murdered Dumbledore, he's not getting away with that.  If 
Harry expects retribution for Snape humiliating him in class, I don't think 
he's going to get that.  If he feels he needs it, it seems like he kind of 
is Snape.  And that really does seem to be Snape's penance.  The man could 
have been happy for years--his nemeses are either dead or in jail, and 
instead he ressurects James in the form of Harry so he can still be furious 
and feel wronged.

Sydney:

Sydney, who think the Durselys ARE child-abusers and would have appreciated 
D-dore mentioning something about it, like, 10 years ago, but thought 'too 
little, too late' when he got on his high-horse in HBP.

Magpie:

I admit I'm not really seing the retribution they supposedly got either. 
The guy who's arranged years of actual abuse and done nothing about it shows 
up one night, does some muggle-baiting to scare the Dursleys, makes a speech 
about how it was really quite terrible they weren't better guardians and 
makes a cryptic remark about how they weren't great parents to their own kid 
either, leaving them confused.

When I imagine the end of that scene from their pov I just think Vernon 
locked the door and they all looked at each other and said, "That was weird. 
Were we right about Wizards or what?  Let's all have tea."

-m