Snape's punishment a "moral" issue? Was "Two Scenes..."

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 144095

Colebiancardi:

> And that is how I view the relationship of Harry to Snape in book 
7. 
> Currently, in Harry's eyes, Snape doesn't deserve anything but to 
be
> killed.  If Snape is DDM!Snape and Harry recognizes this, Harry 
will
> *forgive* Snape of his horrible ways as a teacher - not because 
Snape
> deserves it, but because Snape *needs* it.  And Harry will be the
> bigger person for it. Harry doesn't need Snape to apologize for
> anything, because Harry & Snape both know what Snape is.  Harry can
> change; alas, I don't think Snape can.  But perhaps with giving 
Snape
> what he *needs*, not what he *deserves*, perhaps Snape can then 
move
> on with his life - if he survives book 7, of course.  


Alla:

Strangely enough, it seems, I am not that far from you 
on "forgiveness" issue in some aspects. If well written, I do NOT 
mind Harry forgiving Snape. True, forgiveness is not something you 
deserve, it is a gift from the person you wronged, BUT  to demand 
EVERYTHING from Harry and NOTHING from Snape to me and this is my 
opinion only would amount to letting Snape off the hook. Makes any 
sense?

You are saying that forgiveness is something that Snape needs, OK, 
fair enough, but I don't see even that in the text. If I will see 
that Snape needs, wants forgiveness from Harry, I may even be happy 
with that.

Anything to show me that Harry's gift to Snape will not go in vain, 
you know. 

People keep saying that Snape is his own punishment, that he is not 
happy person. etc. Well, maybe not, but for all I know he ENJOYS 
abusing Harry and Neville and is quite happy doing that.

Please be assured that my views on RL forgiveness are quite close to 
yours, really, but when I read the story about the character, which 
IS my absolutely favorite character and who suffered a great deal 
IMO only from Snape, I do not want Snape to go unpunished, I just 
don't. It is how I feel as a reader, as simple as that.

Again, IF Snape is DD!M ( which I don't believe at all, but I had 
been wrong in my predictions many times, you know :-)), I would even 
be happy with seeing some remorse from him and then seeing Harry 
forgiving him, but I would be disappointed if Harry gets nothing in 
return.

> Pippin:
<SNIP>
>  
> Slughorn raised a pudgy hand and pressed his shaking fingers to
> his mouth; he looked for a moment like an enormously overgrown
> baby. 
> "I am not proud..." he whispered through his fingers. "I am ashamed
> of what -- of what that memory shows....I think I may have done
> great damage that day..."
> "You'd cancel out anything you did by giving me the memory," 
> said Harry. "It would be a very brave and noble thing to do."
> --HBP ch 22
> 
> Slughorn contributed to the deaths of six people, all of whom
> might be alive if he hadn't told Voldemort about Horcruxes, plus
> everyone who's been killed by the renascent Voldemort. Unlike
> Snape, Sluggy kept silent about it for, what, fifty years or so?
> How many people could have been saved if he'd gone to Dumbledore,
> like Snape did? At least Snape tried to make up for what he'd done,
> even if he didn't entirely succeed -- even if he didn't manage to
> save the Potters, the information he brought back as a spy surely
> saved other lives, if you believe DDM!Snape, of course.
<SNIP>

Alla:

This is a WONDERFUL example, Pippin as to how Snape's redemption 
could be done.

Don't you see? Slughorn says one KEY word (IMO anyway) - I am 
ASHAMED of what  this memory shows.

JKR does NOT have to write long pages of Snape apologizing to Harry. 
ONE sentence - "I am sorry, I am ashamed of what I did" and that 
would really be enough, anything else we could imagine easily.

Right now, for all the talk of Snape's remorse, I don't see any in 
the text, you know?

Yeah, Dumbledore says it was Snape's remorse, but I want to hear it 
from him.


Sydney:

> And could we please stop labeling Snape's treatment of the 
students 
> with the quasi-legal "child abuse" as thought that's an obvious 
> thing that any non-evil person would agree with?

Alla:

I am very sorry, but no I cannot stop labeling Snape's actions as 
such. I am not asking anybody to agree with me, but I am convinced 
that that is what Snape does - abuse Harry and Neville. I am always 
extra clear to state that this is only my opinion, but that IS my 
opinion and so far canon did nothing to convince me to the opposite.

Steve makes the distinction "ABUSE" v "abuse", I think. I can agree 
that Snape's is in the small letters, but I cannot  call it any 
other word. I am sorry again.

Besides, even though I don't need JKR's interviews to form this 
opinion, she calls him a teacher who abuses his power. I think that 
my opinion has at least some support.

Again,

just my opinion,

Alla