Snape's punishment a "moral" issue? Was "Two Scenes..."

[colebiancardi]

No: HPFGUIDX 144098

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214"
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:
>
> Colebiancardi:
> 
> > And that is how I view the relationship of Harry to Snape in book 
> 7. 
> > Currently, in Harry's eyes, Snape doesn't deserve anything but to 
> be
> > killed.  If Snape is DDM!Snape and Harry recognizes this, Harry 
> will
> > *forgive* Snape of his horrible ways as a teacher - not because 
> Snape
> > deserves it, but because Snape *needs* it.  And Harry will be the
> > bigger person for it. Harry doesn't need Snape to apologize for
> > anything, because Harry & Snape both know what Snape is.  Harry can
> > change; alas, I don't think Snape can.  But perhaps with giving 
> Snape
> > what he *needs*, not what he *deserves*, perhaps Snape can then 
> move
> > on with his life - if he survives book 7, of course.  
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Strangely enough, it seems, I am not that far from you 
> on "forgiveness" issue in some aspects. If well written, I do NOT 
> mind Harry forgiving Snape. True, forgiveness is not something you 
> deserve, it is a gift from the person you wronged, BUT  to demand 
> EVERYTHING from Harry and NOTHING from Snape to me and this is my 
> opinion only would amount to letting Snape off the hook. Makes any 
> sense?

colebiancardi: but forgiveness does not need an apology or even a
reconcilation of some sorts between the persons.  I am not demanding
anything from Harry nor Snape.  I got into this conversation because
people were actually wanting Snape to be humiliated like Harry was -
to be called on his actions.  The forgiveness angle does not make
Harry a lesser person, in fact, it makes him a hero.  It allows Harry
to control the situation, not Snape.  I brought this up as although I
am a lasped Catholic, I do know the teachings of forgiveness and what
inner peace it brings to the person doing the forgiving.  Since JKR is
a Christian and states some tenent of her faith will play a part in
the final book, I think this is the route to go.  Humiliation is not
part of the Christian faith.  Forgiveness is.  Harry doesn't need to
tell Snape what a SOB Snape is, Snape already knows this and Harry
knows this.  

> 
> You are saying that forgiveness is something that Snape needs, OK, 
> fair enough, but I don't see even that in the text. If I will see 
> that Snape needs, wants forgiveness from Harry, I may even be happy 
> with that.
> 
> Anything to show me that Harry's gift to Snape will not go in vain, 
> you know. 

colebiancardi: 
but that is not the idea behind forgiveness.  From my searching on
forgiveness, I found this:
Forgiveness can still occur even when the offending person continues
the hurtful behavior.  If we choose to allow that person to remain a
part of our life (as we often do with family) or if we don't have a
choice (as is often the case in work situations), forgiveness can wipe
away the negative emotional effects of the past even when "the past"
was only 15 minutes ago.

Harry's gift to Snape is actually a gift to Harry in the long run. 
Snape may never show or ask for forgiveness - to him, that is a sign
of weakness.  The need to be forgiven does not need to come from the
offender - it comes from the stronger person, which I believe we can
agree on is Harry.  To me, that would demostrate a better *moral* tale
than having Snape beg for forgiveness or be called on his past behavior.

> 
> Please be assured that my views on RL forgiveness are quite close to 
> yours, really, but when I read the story about the character, which 
> IS my absolutely favorite character and who suffered a great deal 
> IMO only from Snape, I do not want Snape to go unpunished, I just 
> don't. It is how I feel as a reader, as simple as that.

colebiancardi:
but what about Harry?  It is up to him.  Forgiveness is not about
punishment.  As I stated in an earlier post, I came from an abusive
home(my father).  He died before I actually had the insight and wisdom
to forgive him.   I never would want him punished for any deeds he did
towards me - I have forgiven him.  Although I wish I could have done
this when he was alive, it does not require me to have that face to
face reconcilation to forgive and let go of the past.  My father never
apologized to me for his deeds, yet that is ok with me.  We are both,
IMHO, in a better place due to the forgiveness that I and my siblings
have given him.

> 
> Again, IF Snape is DD!M ( which I don't believe at all, but I had 
> been wrong in my predictions many times, you know :-)), I would even 
> be happy with seeing some remorse from him and then seeing Harry 
> forgiving him, but I would be disappointed if Harry gets nothing in 
> return.

colebiancardi:  again, that is missing the whole point of forgiveness.
 Harry will get something back in return - his sense of self and
control over his own fate.  Harry will be able to heal his mind,
spirit and body.

> 
> Alla:
> 
> This is a WONDERFUL example, Pippin as to how Snape's redemption 
> could be done.
> 
> Don't you see? Slughorn says one KEY word (IMO anyway) - I am 
> ASHAMED of what  this memory shows.

colebiancardi:  but that would be out of Snape's character.  However,
it would be nice for Snape to grow as a person, but I feel he will be
dead before this type of conversation happens.  What Slughorn stated
was in his character.  


> Right now, for all the talk of Snape's remorse, I don't see any in 
> the text, you know?
> 
> Yeah, Dumbledore says it was Snape's remorse, but I want to hear it 
> from him.

colebiancardi:  perhaps a Pensive memory of Snape talking about his
remorse with DD back in the early days will be revealed.  I doubt that
Snape will ever tell Harry something this personal - I can see Snape
telling Dumbledore, but Harry?


> Alla:
> 
> I am very sorry, but no I cannot stop labeling Snape's actions as 
> such. I am not asking anybody to agree with me, but I am convinced 
> that that is what Snape does - abuse Harry and Neville. I am always 
> extra clear to state that this is only my opinion, but that IS my 
> opinion and so far canon did nothing to convince me to the opposite.
> 
> Steve makes the distinction "ABUSE" v "abuse", I think. I can agree 
> that Snape's is in the small letters, but I cannot  call it any 
> other word. I am sorry again.

colebiancardi: 
I posted way back up the thread about this *child abuse*.  I won't
repost it here, just the link.  But the general idea was since when is
being sarcastic child abuse?  We aren't talking about fragile flowers
here (except for Neville) - these are pre-teens and teens.
full post here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/144060

colebiancardi....third post for zee day.  packing it in and lurking
till tomorrow.