Two scenes for most everyone (was Re: Retribution for Snape the Teacher)

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 144105

 


> Julie:
> These two scenes aren't karmic retribution,  they are scenes of abject 
> humiliation. In the first scene Snape is not  genuinely apologizing or 
> remorseful for his actions, and in neither  scene is there any 
> indication that Snape has grown beyond his  prejudices and grudges and 
> come to understand himself or those around  him better (which is what 
> Dumbledore wants to see, and why he won't  *force* Snape to 
> change/apologize/make amends).
> 

>  

Lupinlore:
Ah, but karmic retribution is NOT the same as personal  growth.  Let us 
look at the situation with Lockheart.  He ends up  with his mind wiped, 
as he had done to so many others, and confined to a  mental institution -
- as one suspects many of his victims have been.   Now, does that mean 
he has undergone personal growth?  Absolutely  not.  It merely indicates 
that the punishment has fit the crime in a  particularly fitting and 
satisfying way.  That is the meaning of karmic  retribution.  Now, 
Snape's sins involve public and crushing humiliation  of his students.  
Therefore, appropriate retribution for Snape would be  public 
humiliation.  What goes around comes around, etc.
 
Julie:
I don't think your scenes are really karmic retribution either,  because
that usually comes the way of an unexpected comeuppance, not 
something as direct as McGonagall telling Snape how abusive he 
was to Harry. Thus the whole "karmic" thing, getting back from fate/
Cosmos/whatever what you've put in. Karmic retribution would be 
Snape going into a situation (unrelated to Hogwarts) where he is 
an underling and is treated with verbal abuse and humiliation and has
to take it. Since this is Harry's story, that's not likely to  happen.


Lupinlore:
Now, poetic justice CAN lead to personal growth.  Perhaps we will see  
that with regard to the Dursleys.  The karmic justice dished out by  
Dumbledore may, in the seventh book, lead to some movement, although 
JKR  has seemed to discount that in terms of Vernon and Petunia.  I have 
no  objection at all to personal growth from Snape, but the needs of 
poetic  justice MUST be met, if JKR can be said to have dealt with the 
incredibly  important moral issue of child abuse and Snape's 
reprehensible behavior, not  to mention Dumbledore's reprehensible 
policies in allowing it.

But the problem is I just don't see it.  I really can't see any  
scenario in which growth on Snape's part would be believable.  He has  
had sixteen years to nurse his grudges.  Nothing that has happened  
since Harry came to Hogwarts, including finding out he was wrong about  
Sirius being a DE and that he was wrong about Harry's childhood, has  
moved him as much as a centimeter. I agree that genuine growth and a  
genuine, heartfelt apology on his part would be best -- oh yes, I  
absolutely agree with that.  But what on Earth could happen after all  
this time that would make such a change believable?  Many fans claimed,  
on the basis of the most slender evidence, that such a change had begun  
at the end of OOTP.  Well, HBP put the old kabosh on THAT.  What  could 
possibly happen to cause a change that would not be a MUCH bigger deus  
ex machina/non-sequitur than something like the scenes I've proposed  
(and by the way, I agree that they would each be something of a  non-
sequitur, but no worse than the third chapter of HBP -- face it, JKR  
just ain't that much for consistency and coherence)?
 
 
 
Julie:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, because while I see Snape's
behavior as reprehensible, I don't see is as flat out child abuse as
you do, nor do I see any horrible damage Snape has left on Harry
or Neville. I don't see it as any worse than legions of teacher did
with canes and words (Catholic nuns among them) throughout the
recorded history of teaching. (And, verbally, at least, it still  happens
today.) Snape is wrong, Snape is not a *good* teacher in the best
sense, but he's not criminal, and he doesn't even approach a  true
sadist or child abuser when it comes to his treatment of children, 
neither in quality or in quantity. 
 
Oh, and I don't agree about HBP. We still don't know enough about
Snape's true allegiance to know whether Snape has changed at all
internally. He hides his true feelings and his true intentions, and 
what he doesn't hide he's as likely to lie about as tell the truth  (and
that is why the Spinner's End chapter contains not a shred of real
evidence of Snape's true character either). 

<snip various proposed scenes that we are agreed would be  little
more than handy toilet paper stock>


Lupinlore:
So, in summary, I agree totally with your main point.   What I have 
proposed is a non-sequitur that doesn't make that much sense  when put 
against some of the rest of the plot.  I don't think these  scenes are 
any worse in terms of inconsistancy than many we have in canon,  but oh 
well.  It would be by far for the best for Snape to experience  internal 
growth and offer apologies out of his own expanded understanding --  if 
that could be accomplished in any way that wouldn't involve a much  
bigger non-sequitur or Deus Ex Machina than any of the scenarios I was  
toying with.  

But, if you have any scenarios you think COULD  accomplish internal 
growth and voluntary apology from Snape WITHOUT such a  large wrench to 
the plot, or without using hand-waving and magic bullets, I,  for one, 
would love to hear them!


Julie:
Actually, I think Pippin accomplished that for me! I'd much rather  see
a real confrontation between Harry and Snape, with both of them  gaining
a truer understanding of the other, and both of them recognizing how
they've sorely misjudged the other (I'm assuming DDM!Snape here). If
Harry is the one to see the truth first, which he should since he's  our
hero, and Snape with his decades-long grudges needs a good head-
butting to admit his errors, then I'll applaud, because *that* fits the 
characters. After all, there is a reason why Harry, despite the many
tragedies he's endured, is able to enjoy happy, carefree moments, 
while Snape wouldn't know happy if it slapped him in the face. 
Harry ultimately likes himself, and Snape  doesn't.





Julie 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]