Did Snape lie in Spinner's End? Was:Re: Snape and GOF

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 144407

Orna:
> > I don't understand. Why is it assumed, that the only way Snape 
> could 
> > have boasted to contribute to Sirius' death is by passing the 
> > information on Harry's attachment towards Sirius to the Malfoys 
or 
> > to Voldemort? 
> 
> Elyse: Oh, I agree there were other ways of contributing to Sirius' 
> death, but this was what jumped instinctively to my mind when I 
read 
> it for the first time,it was my initial reaction.
> Maybe it was part of my subconscious desire to vindicate Snape's 
> being a bad guy, so I took it as a lie on my first reading.
> Now of course, I'm not so sure.....

Ceridwen:
Sirius's death is peripheral to the mission, which was to get the 
prophecy.  Snape and Bellatrix had just argued about that mission and 
its disastrous end.  She said LV trusts her, he asks if he does still 
after the 'fiasco at the Ministry'.  Not *her* fault!  She was 
trusted.  'If Lucius hadn't...'

Blaming Lucius now, in front of Narcissa.  And Narcissa doesn't sit 
still for that!  'Don't you dare - don't you *dare* blame my 
husband!'  Voice 'low and deadly'.  At this point, Narcissa isn't 
about to give aid and comfort to her sister.  Snape redirects the 
conversation, but keeps it in the Ministry.  Bella changes the 
subject to Grimmauld Place.  Snape replies, and tosses out the info 
that he supplied which led to the capture and death of Emmaline 
Vance, and for Sirius's death, though he gives her credit for 
actually killing him.  Back to the Ministry.  And to the recent 
disagreement between the sisters.  Good for Snape, not good for 
Bella.  He's dividing the sisters and sparing himself a two-pronged 
attack.  Bella's helping, too.

> Orna:
> He doesn't say – I actively contributed to Harry's 
> > allurement to the MoM. As I read it, he could be talking about 
> what 
> > Harry was thinking:  provoking Sirius to leave his hiding-place. 

> Elyse: I dont know...I think that Sirius leaving Grimmauld Place 
was 
> more out of concern for Harry rather than wanting to prove anything 
> to Snape. I doubt he would have stayed there like a good boy, even 
> if Snape hadnt taunted him. Just my interpretation, of course...if 
> Sirius does come back, this would be the first question I would ask 
> him.

Ceridwen:
Sirius's death wasn't the important thing in the trip to the MoM.  
The whole idea was to get the prophecy.  Snape throws this in to 
deflect the Secret Keeper argument and keep Narcissa's feelings 
against Bella bubbling.  Why should LV care which Order member died?  
He would probably have wanted more of them gone.

The only benefit to LV is that Harry is grieving.  But this turns 
against him when he tries to possess Harry.  Harry's feelings for 
Sirius are too painful for LV to bear.  And since the MoM, he's been 
keeping out of Harry's head - not an advantage.  The advantage of 
mentioning Sirius's death is to refer back to the 'fiasco' Bellatrix 
blamed on Lucius just a minute before, keeping the shadow of a wedge 
between the sisters.  That it also adds to Snape's story about 
loyalty is beside the immediate need, IMO.

Elyse:
> But assuming that Sirius did leave 12GP due to Snape's "feeble 
> taunts", how can Snape brag about it? 
> If this is what he was referring to, I'm sure Bella would have 
> jeered "Wow, Snape what a contribution, we were out fighting and 
you 
> were exchanging insults?
> What a heroic effort you made for the Dark Lord! I'm absolutely 
> convinced of your honesty now!"...;-)

Ceridwen:
But he isn't bragging.  He's deflecting Bella's criticism.  He 
mentions it in passing, then immediately gives her credit for the 
kill.  Sirius's death serves the purpose of keeping the sisters 
divided by obliquely bringing up the Ministry again.  There was no 
time, and no opportunity, for Narcissa to break in and say 'No, 
Kreachur told us...'  This is between Bellatrix and Snape.  And 
Narcissa is already stinging over the comment about Lucius, and her 
major concern for Draco.

I don't even see in canon where she's following this argument.  If it 
was me, I would have been sitting there fuming about how long this 
nonsense was taking.  She's obviously distracted by her maternal 
concerns when the argument is over and Snape turns to her.  The 
preliminaries, which I assume were unnecessarily taking up precious 
time in her mind, are over, now it's time for the main event.

*(snip, since I don't think he was thinking much about Sirius at all)*

> Orna:
> > Actually, it is a double-edged sword - because Voldemort wanted 
> > first of all the prophecy, and any connection of Snape towards 
> > alarming the order wouldn't be a very wise confession, IMO. So I 
> > found it quite risky to admit having anything to do with Sirius' 
> > death. It might be a way of a snivelly compliment for Bella's 
> ears. 

> Elyse: LOLOL Now we know where that nickname came from!
> And yes I agree it would have been better not to mention it at all, 
> especially as an example of his loyalty!

Ceridwen:
And he slithers out of any blame for it just before he mentions 
Sirius.  He doubts if Bellatrix is as trusted as she has been after 
the Ministry 'fiasco'.  Bella blames Lucius.  Snape is free and 
clear, and Bella is on the defensive.  She suggests that Snape got 
out of the dangerous work, but he has an answer - he must protect his 
position with Dumbledore.  And this whole thing is to get out of 
answering Bellatrix's question of what useful information he's 
provided.  Snape has given his information to LV.  'If he chooses not 
to share it with you...'  taking them right into the MoM battle, and 
the disastrous way it turned out.  Not Snape's fault, he did as he 
was told.  Bellatrix, however, was there, and didn't stop the capture 
and imprisonment of the DEs.

Even Sirius's death, which turned out to be an obstacle to LV, is 
less his fault than Bella's.  Snape, in this scene, reminds me of my 
kids when they're trying to get out of the blame for something, more 
than someone who's trying to claim glory.

To LV, Sirius's death is peripheral to the disaster that was supposed 
to bring him the prophecy.  And that's how Snape treats it, along 
with everything else, showing Bella that he's more on LV's wavelength 
than she is.  But, that's just the way I see it after only a couple 
of readings.

Ceridwen.