Cultural standards for Snape abusiveness/Karma again/Mcgonagall and Neville

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 144417

> Pippin:
> I don't have a problem with Snape apologizing if he chooses to.
> I have a problem with Harry or anyone else *making* him do it.
> That's what Lily was saying too, I think. I don't think you have
> to be a saint to see that forcing someone to apologize is just
> power-tripping, IMO.

Alla:

No, you don't have to be a saint to see that, but IMO you do have to 
be one to forgive someone who wronged you so badly without any 
indication on the other side that such person wants your forgiveness. 
I am not saying DESERVES forgiveness, but I am definitely saying ASKS 
for one.


> Pippin:
> I guess I am not clear what Snape is supposed to be punished for,
> DDM!Snape, I mean.

Alla:

Oh, I guess our positions are even farther from each other than I 
thought yesterday. So, Snape has nothing to be punished for, right? 
We are approaching agree to disagree moment, but I do want to respond 
to some points of yours first. But first of all, you are not arguing 
that it is an undisputable fact that Snape is DD!M, right?


Pippin:
 If it is for serving Voldemort, then I think he is
> supposed to have paid for his crimes by changing sides and saving
> Harry. I know you think that any teacher would have done that, but
> the fact is, Harry himself tells Slughorn that he is *not* agreeing 
to
> help Dumbledore fight Voldemort by taking a Hogwarts job.
> Even now, when everyone knows Voldemort is back and the whole
> wizarding world is in danger, ordinary teachers are not expected 
> to take a hand in the fight. 

Alla:

Erm... I agree it seems that ordinary teachers are not supposed to 
take part in the fight, but I do not think that saving Harry during 
his Qudditch match means taking part in the fight. JMO obviously.

Yep, I consider it to be the part of ordinary teachers duties during 
the time of peace too.

Horace is not expected to take part in the fight, true, but I don't 
think that if he turned Harry away when he asked him for antidote for 
Ron, Dumbledore would have been very pleased.



Pippin:
> If it is for using the 'wrong' teaching methods, I think they are 
allowable by
> Hogwarts standards even if Harry and Neville were frightened by 
them.
> The different standards thing shows up really clearly in your 
example.
> IIRC,where you grew up, no one thinks it is wrong for children to be
> left at home for long periods alone. If something happens to such a
> child, I guess people would not blame the parents for leaving, they
> would say it was just one of those things, right? But in
> my country, the parents would be blamed. Can you see how different 
> that is? It doesn't have to mean that one culture is right and the 
other
> is wrong, it just means they have made different choices about how
> to take care of children.

Alla:

I don't think that it is within Hogwarts teaching manual that what 
Snape does to them is allowed.

And as to my example - OF COURSE parents will be blamed and no, at 
six years old I was not left alone for a long time, maybe an hour or 
two.

It is just kids were taught to not do certain things while parents 
are not at home ( as Ceridwen said - were more self sufficient) and 
if the child would do it anyway, of course parent will be blamed and 
I would imagine  that any normal parent would blame himself for that 
too.

Not that many people could hire babysitters, that is for sure, simply 
because during communism era hired labor was thrown upon, but 
grandparents often could watch  the children but then the kids could 
have stayed in the after school program.

No, I don't see that much of the difference in the general terms, 
frankly. Not between the cultures , because communism based culture 
sure was very different from American one ( now I was told it is not 
that different either), but between taking care of the child.

Oh, I think I rambled enough . Let's go back to Hogwarts now. YES, 
whether Snape is DD!M or not, I do think he should be punished for 
bringing personal attitude in the classroom, if for nothing else.
 

Pippin: 
> If it is for losing his temper occasionally, or for abusing his 
power, 
> fine, as long as everyone else in canon who loses their temper
> and abuses power is also punished. To punish just Snape in the name
> of showing that these things are wrong and in an ideal world 
everyone
> would be punished for them -- well, that is the definition of 
scapegoating,
> IMO.

Alla:

But that is my point, Pippin. Everybody who abused his power in canon 
WAS punished (karmically or otherwise)or Jo clearly said that they 
will be IMO anyway.

Lockhart was obliviating all those people, whose deeds he claimed as 
his own. Check.

Fake!Moody was kissed for the abuse he dished in the classroom. Check.


Umbridge was hit by centaurs AND Jo said that it is fun to torture 
her more, that is why she is around (parphrase), so she will get what 
is coming too, IMO.

Those were bad guys ( in my book anyways).

Let's take a look at the good guys. Again, IMO.

Sirius went to Azkaban, which if you believe that he abused his power 
over Snape could be considered as karmic punishment for that. Check.

Fred and George's Powder was used by DE to get into school, which if 
you believe that they abuse their power in their pranks, could be 
considered a karmic punishment for that. Check.

Whether you agree or not that Snape is an abuser, Jo said that he 
abuses his power ( I am not sure how else teacher can abuse his power 
but by abusing hi students, but different people interpret it 
differently of course) , so I am not sure why Jo is going to make an 
exception for Snape and let him go punishment free.
 

Pippin:
> Snape is not the only person who can't understand why Neville isn't 
> better at magic and has attempted to bully more magic out of him -- 
> even McGonagall has done so. And doesn't Hagrid say that magic 
> shows itself when people are angry or frightened? So it would be
> very easy for Snape to make excuses for himself in Neville's case.
> I'm not saying they're valid, just that Neville seems to bring out
> the bully in a lot of wizards besides Snape. Are they all going to
> apologize too?


Alla:

Erm... YES, IMO. I said it already - I consider what Mcgonagall did 
to Neville to be her very worst moments as teacher. Would I want her 
to apologize? YES, you bet I do.

But one reason why I think Mcgonagall is a great teacher and much 
better one than Snape is because she seems to LEARN from her 
mistakes, and CHANGE her attitude toward Neville.

I don't remember her humiliating Neville in OOP or HBP at all. I do 
remember her saying that " there is nothing wrong with your work but 
a lack of confidence" ( paraphrase)


JMO,

Alla