Cultural standards for Snape abusiveness/Karma again/Mcgonagall and Neville

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 144418

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:
>
> > Pippin:
> > I don't have a problem with Snape apologizing if he chooses to.
> > I have a problem with Harry or anyone else *making* him do it.
> > That's what Lily was saying too, I think. I don't think you have
> > to be a saint to see that forcing someone to apologize is just
> > power-tripping, IMO.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, you don't have to be a saint to see that, but IMO you do have 
to 
> be one to forgive someone who wronged you so badly without any 
> indication on the other side that such person wants your 
forgiveness. 
> I am not saying DESERVES forgiveness, but I am definitely saying 
ASKS 
> for one.

Magpie:

Err...woah.  I don't think you have to be a saint to do that at all, 
and I've known people who have forgiven much much worse that way. 
It's sometimes just the healthy thing to do--I think forgiveness is 
often a self-preservation thing, not any great sacrifice.  Harry 
forgiving Snape would not make him a saint but a person with a 
better chance at a happy life.  It would be better for Harry if he 
did this--it might not be better for Snape at all.

I think maybe that's where the disagreement comes in. I don't think 
Harry would have to be doing anything nice for Snape by forgiving 
him.  Snape wouldn't even have to know that Harry forgave him.  
Perhaps Snape might not even be alive.  He might have been executed 
for killing Dumbledore by that point, let's say.  Forgiving Snape 
would just mean Harry untying himself from Snape.  If Harry doesn't 
forgive Snape (whether or not Snape asks for it or is punished) 
he'll be tied to all this for the rest of his life.  Neville may 
have already forgiven Snape for his treatment, though many readers 
haven't forgiven Snape on his behalf.  Forgiveness won't depend on 
anything but whether or not Harry's ready to let it go.

Snape could still get his karmic punishment without ever having 
remorse for his actions or realizing he was wrong.  Dumbledore seems 
to be trying to give the Durlseys a major burn by telling them that 
they mistreated Dudley and they're just confused, including Dudley, 
and Harry doesn't really seem to get much out of the scene.  That 
is, I don't get the sense that Harry has some major shift in his 
feelings with relation to the Dursleys because of DD's smackdown--
not even as much as he had a change of feeling after Hagrid's first 
visit, I think because Hagrid's visit gave Harry personal power he 
didn't have before.  JKR might like to torture people like Umbridge 
(James liked to torment people like Snape) but if Harry doesn't 
forgive Snape Snape will be tormenting him the rest of his life, 
just as Snape is still tormented by the Marauders even though all 
things considered he had a better life than any of them!  

-m