Snape Wars vs Ship Wars was re: Cultural standards for Snape abusiveness/

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 144595

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at y...> 
wrote:
>
> > > Alla:
> <SNIP>
> But first of all, you are not arguing 
> > > that it is an undisputable fact that Snape is DD!M, right?
> > 
> > Pippin:
> > Undisputable? LOL! But if you have to argue that JKR has lost 
> control of the story arc in order to refute it, then the case for DDM is 
> pretty strong, IMO. 
> 
> Alla:

> So, the best I could come up with was when I said that I was 
> speculating that the only reason JKR made Snape kill Dumbledore was 
> that he was not bad enough for many fans as horrible person and she 
> had to take it steps higher  and make him a murderer - to up the 
> stakes so to speak. Is that what you meant? If that was it, I think 
> it has NOTHING to do with the argument for OFH! ot ESE!Snape. I was 
> just speculating one of the possibilities and I stated pretty 
> clearly that I had nothing to support such speculation, IMO. I don't 
> think it is out of realm of possibilities, but even we completely 
> threw it away, I DO think that Villain!Snape fits very nicely in the 
> plot. It just forces you ( not you the reader) to reread all the 
> incidents with the different meaning in mind and you know - to me 
> ALL of them fit.
> 

Pippin:
Well, I am afraid I am not following your logic here and  I
feel I must be missing some steps, which I am sure are very clear in your 
mind.

IMO, if Snape is a murderer, the boggart lesson in PoA
loses both its humor and its point. Murderers are not funny, even if
they are wearing silly clothes, and if a murderer is threatening you,
imagining that he has silly clothes on is not going to help. On the
other hand, if you are afraid of someone  because they always
make you look stupid, then imagining that they look stupid too is
golden. 

 
Maybe I misunderstood you, but I thought you were saying that 
JKR hadn't planned to make Snape a murderer when she wrote that
scene, but then she felt the fans weren't revolted enough by Snape so
she decided to make him a killer. But that still doesn't explain why
she would write a scene which flat out doesn't work unless  Neville's
fear of Snape is overblown. 

The class roars with laughter when Neville admits that his biggest
fear is Snape, and even Neville grins a little. The whole point of
the lesson, for me, is that Snape is just another kind of boggart.
The boggart uses your worst fears against you, but that is nothing 
to worry about if you realize that they are *your* fears, so you are 
really just scaring yourself. 

I can't see it as funny if Snape is supposed to be a murderer, and
I really can't see JKR stepping on her own joke like that if she knows
what she is doing.  I thought you were arguing that she didn't.
My mistake if I am wrong, but if you  have an explanation of 
the scene that doesn't depend on JKR not knowing what sort of
effect it produces or changing her mind about what sort of character
Snape is (which is what I mean by losing control of the
material) and fits with villain!Snape, I would love to hear it. 

OTOH, if you can't make major bits of business like the boggart lesson
work in the context of villain!Snape, then villain!Snape is weak, IMO.

Does that help?   



Pippin