Whither Snape AND the Dursleys AND Umbridge?/JKR's view of teacher Snape

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 144873

>> Jen: > 
> 1) Dursleys. My absolute favorite punishment for the Dursleys was 
> posted here: They will have to hide-out at Grimmauld Place b/c 
> Privet Dr. isn't safe. HAH!

Alla:

LOVE all your punishments Jen! :-)


 

Jen:
<SNIP>
> This is fun to think about, but in the end I think JKR toys mainly 
> with minor characters like Lockhart, Umbridge, Bagman, etc. When 
> more major characters are dealt blows, they fall into two 
> categories: 1) Natural consequences stemming from choices and 2) 
> When Bad Things Happen to Good People or 'why crappy things happen 
> in the world for no reason'.
> 
> Fudge is an example of the former, losing his job for his abysmal 
> performance in OOTP. Percy's separation from his family and the 
> increasing resentment on both sides is painful for several of the 
> Weasleys. And the second category? If JKR is really going for the 
> karmic justice of most characters in the book, she'd better have a 
> good explanation for *Harry* first and foremost, then the Potters, 
> Frank and Alice Longbottom, Neville, Cedric and a few others I 
could 
> think of.....


Alla:

Hmmm, interesting point.  I would not say that ALL major characters 
experience the karmic punishment, BUT rather the idea of karmic 
justice at the end, you know?

Does it make sense? Of course  the story have to take its twists an 
turns  and I doubt that JKR sits down and decides that today I will 
punish this character or reward this character or that I will do it 
to ALL the characters, but when story allows it, I believe it plays 
very significant part and of course it is easier for JKR 
specifically punish minor characters, since it does not have to 
interfere with the main storyline too much.

Gah, I am being confusing again. I guess it all comes to that many 
times repeated "character is fate" idea. I know you don't buy 
essentialism as one of the main ideas behind the series - I do. I 
think that JKR allows her characters to change to some extent, so I 
don't think that she is strict essentialist, but I also think that 
everybody in Potterverse has some part in themselves who they really 
are, you know? And according to who they are their fate could be 
determined.

Having said all that, I also think what you said about " bad things 
happened to good people" is perfectly valid interpretation. 

I think Sirius' going to Azkaban is VERY good example. It IS "bad 
thing" happened to good person ( of course it is JMO that Sirius is 
a good person - with many many flaws, but good overall) as result of 
many disastrous events, BUT also if one believes that Sirius 
bullied, mistreated Snape in school , it is IMO karmic punishment 
for that - you know - Dementors ARE in charge, completely and you   
are in your own private hell.

So, I absolutely can view this is as karmic punishment  and that is 
why I absolutely think that if Sirius bullied Snape, he paid for his 
sins ten times over. It IS seemingly unrelated action, but to me it 
all fits neatly, you know.

If you go back to Snape and Harry, I can totally see Snape getting 
hit with something seemingly unrelated, but something which will 
leave him powerless and probably at Harry's mercy. THAT would be 
nice karmic punishment to me.


Oh, and your examples about Potters and Longbottoms - of course it 
is not punishment, but I was talking about characters who we SAW did 
something bad and THEN getting punished. We did not see Potters 
(especially Lily) to do anything bad, so this is totally bad thing 
happens to good people IMO.

As to Harry and Neville, personally I have no doubt that they will 
get their reward at the end, I mean it could be a reward in the 
afterlife ( which I am SO hoping not), but the reward nevertheless.

JMO of course

> Betsy Hp
> Hmmm.  I'm not sure I agree with this.  I think JKR sees bad 
> *aspects* to Snape's teaching, specifically his favoritism and the 
> incredibly cruel wit he allows to escape now and again, but 
overall, 
> I think JKR does show Snape to be a good teacher.  
<SNIP>

 
>
Alla:

JKR may see some "good aspects" in Snape teaching, but I am not sure 
if her calling Snape a bully and saying that this is the worst 
shabbiest thing teacher can do, qualifies as her thinking that Snape 
is a good teacher overall.

I mean, I guess you could argue that her interviews and the books 
contradict each other, but no matter how hard I look, I don't see 
the contradictions, since the kids whom JKR shows Snape interacting 
with most closely, he mistreats horribly, IMO of course.


Betsy:
 She compares him to McGonagall at one point, when Harry notes that 
> Snape, like McGonagall, had no problem getting a class under 
> control.  

Alla:

Yes, the narrator, who looks through Harry eyes, says that Snape had 
a gift to keep class quiet. To me it rebuts SO beautifully the 
argument that Harry comes to the first class ready to hate Snape, 
already prejudiced against him, etc, etc. ( not saying that you made 
this argument, just remembering the older threads, but not the names 
of the posters). 

Hey, Snape has to have SOME teaching skills. At least he is capable 
of keeping class quiet, which is of course good. Not enough to me to 
qualify as good teacher overall, but of course IMO qualifies as good 
aspect. 


Betsy:
She shows him having a rather large NEWT level Potions 
> class, while at the same time making sure the readers know that 
> Snape is very demanding about who he'll take into his NEWT level 
> courses. 

Alla:

I can ABSOLUTELY see Snape being good to his Slytherins, and maybe 
even to some unnamed students from other Houses. The problem is I 
believe that if teacher abuses few students( IMO of course), it is 
teacher's problem NOT students and I am having a hard time calling 
such teacher a good one.

Betsy:
 Hermione *never* complains about Snape's teaching 
> abilities, and she's a pretty reliable barometer when it comes to 
> Hogwarts' teachers.

Alla:

Well,not always actually, IMO. She was pretty fond of Lockhart, 
remember? She also does not like Firenze and IMO it is shown quite 
clearly that he IS a good Divination teacher.


Betsy:
> To top it all off, JKR gives Snape the best opening lines for a 
> class of any teacher in the books.  <SNIP>

Alla:

People keep saying that those lines prove that Snape likes teaching. 
I am not sure where such proof lies. It DOES prove IMO that Snape 
loves Potions, but loves teaching? I don't see it at all.

JMO of course.

Alla, 
who learned by now that she can only take short breaks from Snape :)