*When* did Dumbledore die?, and DD's hand

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 145180

_Dumbledore's hand?_

Bonnie wrote:
> When I first read HBP I didn't think the damage to DD's hand was
from the destruction of the Ring Horcrux. <snip>
> I have always thought the Ring Horcrux is intact when DD comes to
Privet Dr and when they go to see Slughorn. 

Valky:
It's not. This is a quote from Chapter four HBP -

"He [Dumbledore] shrugged and spread his hands wide, as though to say
that age had its compensations, and Harry noticed a ring on his
uninjured hand that he had never seen Dumbledore wear before: it was
large, rather clumsily made of what looked like gold, and was set with
a heavy black stone that had cracked down the middle."

 
> 
> Does anyone think it reads this way or am I misreading it?
> 
> Bonnie
>

Valky:
Don't let it get you down :) a lot of people have read it this way
first read. 

_When did Dumbledore Die?_

Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Dumbledore died of the poison, IMO, some ten or twenty minutes
> after he'd fallen from the tower. He may have been
> conscious long enough to open the locket, he may
> have decided not to call for aid in order to preserve
> Snape's cover and keep the vow from going into effect,
> or because his first priority was to see that Snape and
> Harry got the Death Eaters out of the school. Any
> way you slice it, neither of them is a murderer in this
> scenario. Death by misadventure.
<SNIP>

Orna added:
Just want to add Harry's first intuition – he badly wanted to get
Snape and DD together – feeling that that would reverse things. It
would support your theory, since Snape would be the one who could
heal DD – perhaps.
BUT – that means that Snape ran away, while he knew DD's state, and
him being the only one who can rescue him. So how does that help?
AND – Harry froze – perhaps not because of shock as he thinks, but
because DD was still alive when he fell over. OK. But his being
able to move again – how do you explain it? DD wandless freeing him,
Snape nonverbally freeing him?

I don't have an explanation for the fresh blood, but
. As you said,
it might be a flint, which could be explained away by – the effect
of the potion – disabling the congenial of blood.


Another_Potter_Fan replied to Pippin's post:
Pippin,
Only one thing: what of the Unbreakable Vow? If Snape didn't kill
DD, then he should be dead as a consequence of breaking the UV.
Thoughts?

Valky Now:
I think Orna's post answers Potter_fan's question best. IMO the most
possible scenario to go wih DD dying by potion is that Snape becomes
absolved of the UV by the act of refusing to save Dumbledore. It's
fairly certain that in the immediate vicinity there is only one person
that can save DD, and that person is Snape, hence the power to 'take
away' DD's 'life' rests solely with Snape and he fulfills the UV by
running away. 

However, that said, I have another proposition for the lateral
thinkers among us, I am of an unpopular opinion also. 
IMO Dumbledore was right and the Unbreakable Vow never mattered,
exactly as he said. Once you've soaked long enough in the idea that
Dumbledore was pretty much the walking dead in HBP, living on borrowed
time, stoppered at the threshold of death you start to question the
validity of taking a vow to kill a dead man. So I wonder, and do you
suppose, that this Vow was never possible to keep anyway, since it
took place after Dumbledore had effectively begun his death. 

Going back to some thoughts that were posted shortly after HBP by
Carol, about the nature of the DADA curse, it would seem that the
curse acts on it's victim in such a way as to: reveal their innermost
secret, and undo them by it. 
Quirrel's secret was that he carried Voldemort under his turban - this
killed him, Harry's skin became deadly to him because he carried
Voldemort.
Lockhart's secret was that he was a fake who knew only one spell which
he was willing to use unscrupulously. His unscrupulous use of the
Obliviate spell was his undoing and it landed him in the nuthouse.
Lupin's secret - his werewolf sides, a- The werewolf itself, and b-
his childhood misdemeanours. Both of these secrets come together in
the end when Snape takes his revenge for one secret by revealing the
other to the general public.
Moody's secret - inside his fortress of ultra security noone can hear
you scream. Resulting in him spending a torturous year inside a trunk.
Crouch's secret - he is the heinous DE who tortured the Longbottoms to
madness and I am sure theres a little something about Snape in there.
The result, Snape lets the dementors in and Barty's soul gets sucked
leaving his mind to eternal torture.
Umbridges secret - She's just a fascist bully in a pink bow. Result,
her feigned innocence ticks off the kids and every decent person
within shouting distance, her bigotry gets her a week in the Forbidden
Forest with angry Centaurs.

So then we come to Snape's secret, and instead of a nice clean answer
we get the usual mixed bag of Sevvy delights to choose from-
1. The Unbreakable Vow
2. His Potions text.
3. His role in James and Lily's death.
4. Killing Dumbledore.

Will the real Sev Snapey please stand up? 

In unravelling this I guess we could first say that Severus has *many*
secrets. Perhaps so many that even the DADA curse couldn't sort them
out. But then I think that the truth must be in there somewhere and if
the truth is that DD never had a chance such a scenario points to the
job of looking to one of these other secrets to be the major catalyst
in Snape's undoing.

Here's one thing that intrigues me. In every case of the DADA curse
before Snape the teacher confessestheir undoing aloud. See here -
Quirrel - Confesses that Voldemort is his master. 
Lockhart - he tells how gifted he is at performing the Obliviate charm.
Lupin - Tells all about his werewolf affliction.
Crouch - Confesses everything under Veritaserum.
Umbridge - Calls the Centaurs filthy Half Breeds.

But Snape, does 'Avada Kedavra' fit this pattern? No it doesn't. What
fits this pattern is "I, the Half-Blood Prince". 

I submit this is a farly good canon reason to skip over the
Unbreakable Vow and look for Snape's true secret elsewhere.

But there is another corollary that follows this, so I am not done.
Lets suppose for an instant that the Half Blood Prince is Snapes
secret truth that could be his undoing once revealed by the DADA
curse. Being the Half Blood Prince was not the reason he left
Hogwarts, as we know, so is it possible then, that Dumbledore and
Snape somehow managed to dodge the curse before it took full effect.
Just to clarify what I mean by this, I work from the premise that
Dumbledore clearly foresaw and anticipated the end of his life coming
upon him and used his remaining time as best he could, rather than
regret the mistake that had landed him on deaths door. Add to that the
canon probability that the UV is not the revelation of Snape's secret
because it is out of pattern order, and I come up with this scenario.

To venture further afield in this proposition, because this post is
getting long and it may as well stay that way <g>, There is another
pattern to the DADA teachers that could put the UV into a profitable
context. In that pattern each DADA teacher begins the year with a
nominal event -

Quirrel - Appears in The Leaky Cauldron, later we discover he is there
to steal the stone, he shakes Harry's hand.
Lockhart- Appears in Flourish and Blotts selling his books, he gets
his photo taken with Harry.
Lupin- Appears on the Hogwarts express, he gives Harry the chocolate.
Crouch- Is present at the Quidditch Cup, he steals Harry's wand.
Umbridge - Appears at Harry's trial, she testifies against Harry.

The first thing that jumps out at me in this pattern is that there are
two theives (Quirrel and Crouch) and two liars (Umbridge and
Lockhart), then there is Lupin handing out chocolate. The
correspondence between Lupin and Snape here is quite compelling. Feel
free to plan an intervention, I may be approaching this all too
scientifically ;) but it seems to me that Lupins Chocolate and the UV
are corresponding elements in this pattern. After thinking about how
to label them, the best label I come up with is that they are both
real DADA professors. 
Two liars, two theives and two professors of DADA. 

In this context it seems that the UV itself is nothing more than a
proof that Snape knows his Dark Arts, just as Lupin's chocolate was
proof that Remus knew his. 

I am pretty happy with the results of these correlations, and just for
completion I'd like to go on to submit appropriate context for Snapes
other secrets while I am on a roll..

3. His role in James and Lily's death.
Harry finds this part out very close to the end of the book, it is a
terrible thing that the DADA professor has done in the past, I am
supposing that this is in line with this pattern -

Quirrel - Tried to kill Harry.
Lockhart - Stole other people's achievements for his own glory and
wiped their memories.
Lupin - Kept Sirius' secret and in doing so had betrayed Dumbledore's
good faith.
Crouch - Killed his own father, Imperiused Victor Krum, Tortured the
Longbottoms, list goes on.
Umbridge - Sent Dementors to Little Whinging.

4. Killing Dumbledore.
This is Snapes last act before leaving Hogwarts, I am not sure it
really fits a pattern at all, and seems to be the only odd man out. I
would just say this could mean that Snape didn't actually kill
Dumbledore, but so as not to show my bias to the cover-up theory I
will try to extrapolate a pattern anyway.

Quirrel - Attempts to take the stone, but fails.
Lockhart - Attempts to Obliviate Harry and Ron, but fails.
Lupin - Almost commits murder, turns into a deadly werewolf, but in
both cases doesn't do any lasting damage.
Crouch - Attempts to kill Harry, fails.
Umbridge - Attempts to silence Harry and overthrow Dumbledore, fails.
<beg> there is a pattern...

Snape - Casts the Avada Kedavra... 

Valky
fails....
to change the minds of the staunch, but had fun trying. :)