*When* did Dumbledore die?

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 145196

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "another_potter_fan" <kevin_mcgoff at y...> 
wrote:
>
> --- lealess wrote:
> > If so, Draco hasn't really failed and Snape is off the UV hook.  
> 
> Another_Potter_Fan:
> If I recall, the UV for Snape meant that he had to complete what Draco 
> might fail to do. I don't think LV would give an order to just "try" 
> to kill DD - he would've told Draco to "just do it." If Snape had 
> allowed DD to live, then the UV would kick in and Snape would be 
> sharing portraits with DD. :) 
> 
> 
> --- lealess wrote:
> > And Dumbledore may be out of the action, but he may not yet be dead.
> 
> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. As much as I 
> don't want it to be, he's dead. IMO, that's the only way that Snape's not pushing up 
daisies right now.
> 

Pippin:
The words of the vow are, "And, should it prove necessary...if it seems
Draco will fail...will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has
ordered Draco to perform?" One must assume that JKR and Narcissa
chose their words carefully, just as in the prophecy.

There are two conditions, and it is not clear how the magic decides whether
the conditions have been fulfilled. But Narcissa clearly  fears that  the Dark
Lord expects Draco to fail and be killed, either by the Order or
by Voldemort. Binding Snape to carry out the task is an attempt to forestall the 
punishment.  If Snape destroys Dumbledore then Dumbledore will not be
able to kill Draco, and Voldemort won't want to if the plan itself succeeds, 
or so Narcissa must hope. 

It would make sense for the failure to be in the eyes of Voldemort. In
that case the necklace and the poisoned mead were not failures because 
Draco was still in a position to carry out the plan. 

But if   Dumbledore was dead  or dying by the time Draco showed
he was unable to carry out his task, then it would not be necessary for 
Draco to kill him  and Snape is off the hook. It might not be necessary 
even if it only *seemed* that Dumbledore was dead or dying, as long
as Voldemort was convinced that the plan had succeeded. 

It is complicated, but no more so than Dumbledore's reading of the
prophecy.

Pippin
who thinks that Fawkes's song proves Dumbledore is dead. On the
other hand, we have heard phoenix song twice when there was no phoenix
present. Once in CoS, where Fawkes's song is heard before he appears,
and once in GoF during the duel with Voldemort.