Heroes and Not - What should Snape Have Done?/ Slughorn LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 145241

bboyminn:
<SNIP>
> So, I answer your last question first-
> ALLA: "Did I answer your question?"
> 
> to which I answer - NO.


Alla:

Oh well then. I am going to try again, but I am afraid that I won't 
be able to give the answer that will satisfy you. :-) Sorry!


 

> bboyminn: 
> 
> Yes, but we can't travel back into the past with a lot of wishful
> thinking. We have to start at the top of the tower as thing are at
> that point in time and answer the question, 'What should Snape 
do?'.
<BIG SNIP>
> Yes, the Unbreakable Vow was a mistake, but the third Vow was 
somewhat
> forced on him by circumstances, and is not what he originally 
agreed
> to do. Yet, at that point what are his options? How does he get 
out of
> it gracefully and without arousing suspicious about himself?

Alla:

I have to disagree and disagree quite strongly. I think that UV and 
Tower are so closely connected that we cannot NOT travel back in 
time in order to answer that question very strongly.

IMO, taking UV from the beginning was foolishness, recklessness, 
idiocy, take your pick. That is of course JMO and only if Snape is 
indeed DD!M. If he is not, well, then he was just confirming the act 
of treachery of the Light side by taking it, IMO.

Yes, third provision could have been a surprise, BUT if Snape is so 
clever, such a devious spy, I expect him to KNOW that Voldemort does 
NOT order his followers to take tasks which are not connected to 
what was Dumbledore said  to Slughorn - "torture, murder", etc.

How he could have got out of it? EASY, IMO, very easy. Bella gives 
him a perfect way out, IMO and he should have just said - no, 
Narcissa, you should not tell me, I won't do it. Goodbuy, ladies, 
let me enjoy a nice glass of wine with Wormtail here :-) I will see 
you on the next meeting of Voldie and Co or something like that.



> bboyminn:
> 
> So, you expect Snape to sacrific himself on the off and slim chance
> that his own death might afford Dumbledore some level of 
protection?
> Sorry, but to my mind that's not heroic sacrifice, that merely
> throwing your life away on a slim to non-existence and unproven 
hope
> that some good might come out of it.

Alla:

Not at all. I was talking about Lily's sacrifice mainly to argue 
that self-sacrifice is not a senseless thing. I don't expect Snape 
to just throw his life away, but to start fighting  and TRY as I 
said to defend Dumbledore and  the boys. Not fighting with 
expectation to die, but expectation to survive. I guess I just have 
more faith in Snape battling skills than you do :-) I do expect him 
capable to take on several DE, I also don't believe that Dumbledore 
was talking to Draco as  the man who is about to drop dead any 
second, so I think that if Dumbledore was able to talk this idiot 
into lowering his wand a minute earlier, Dumbledore would be able to 
help Snape in fight. Just speculating here of course.






Steve:
> So, Snape fights and dies. 
<SNIP>


Alla:

This is the key difference between our opinions, I think. I 
absolutely do not believe that it is an absolute given that Snape 
would have died. 




> bboyminn:
> 
> I've never been one to give much weight to the Unbreakable Vow. 
First,
> who is the arbiter of the Vow? What magical entity or power 
determines
> when Snape has failed? <snip> Certainly, Snape would take the Vow 
into consideration, and in the
> heat of the moment, I don't think he really had time analyze and
> gamble on potential loopholes in the Vow. Circumstances demanded 
that
> he act. 
> 
> So, while you obviously don't, I can't see Snape's sacrific of his 
own
> life as anything more than a grand empty gesture. Certainly, the
> wizard world would have considered his actions heroic, but nothing 
is
> really gained from the act. 

Alla:

OK, aren't you arguing both ways? If you do not think that Snape 
will necessarily drop dead from not fulfilling Vow, why are you so 
sure that he will necessarily die? He is outnumbered? It is not like 
the odds are even ten to one, I fully expect him to be able to take 
on several DE and as I said I think that if Draco is out of the way, 
Dumbledore IMO could have helped out too.

I would see your point more, if you think that Vow would kill Snape 
right away, but I agree that we don't necessarily know that.


Steve:
> So, no, I don't think you answered the question, nor do I think you
> answered completely or effectively. But of course, that's just my 
opinion.

Alla:

Again, oh well. I did my best and I think that I gave you plausible 
scenario, but of course it is JMO.


> Pippin:
> One reason it's bad is that Slughorn's club is dedicated only to 
the
> advancement of its members.  Slughorn has no interest in helping 
> the weak and unconnected, no interest at all in joining the Order. 
> 
> Think of the help his connections could bring. He's been in hiding 
> *for a year*  at the beginning of  HBP.  Know what that means? 
> He could have used his connections to persuade the WW that 
> Harry was telling the truth.  He's real proud of knowing the
> person who invented the wolfsbane potion, but it hasn't 
> occurred to him to help the socially ostracized werewolves. Lupin
> doesn't get invited to dinner parties.


Alla:

Oh, I completely agree with you. Slughorn is not a public servant, 
far from it, he does not serve underprivileged  and underserved,  
and in that aspect he does not have my complete respect as "real 
person". He is also a coward IMO and that is also one of his not so 
heroic qualities, BUT as long as there are public servants, I don't 
see anything inherently BAD usually in those who advance talented 
kids, you know.

You know what I mean? Is it Slughorn's obligation to help weak and 
unconnected? Personally, I would say Yes, but looking at him from 
within the story, I may also say No. He is not refusing to teach 
anybody Potions doesn't he? He has his Slug club in his spare time, 
so what he does are basically extra curricular activities.

> Saraquel:
> You know Alla, the moment old Slughorn squelched his way onto the 
> pages of HBP I knew that I was going to hate him, and I also know 
> why.  Give me Snape any day, Snape is WYSIWYG, you know where you 
> stand with him.  Either he likes you or he hates you, and that is 
> simply not going to change.  With Slughorn, according to how 
> external circumstances move, so will his favor or disfavor towards 
> you. At least with Snape, you know that the relationship is 
> personal, with Slughorn you can be sure that it is not. If one of 
> your relations suddenly did something noteworthy, you could find 
> yourself hauled in from the cold - then if they blew it, you would 
> be unceremoniously dumped - No you're absolutely right Slughorn, 
> it's nothing personal.


Alla:

Hmmm. Interesting. I agree with you that this is probably the worst 
of what I think Slughorn does in his club - namely drops kids who do 
not satisfy his expectations. I don't even mind so much that he does 
not invite some kids, but that he dropped some of those who he 
invited.

But again, I don't think that I would take Slughorn over Snape. I 
don't see Slughorn's ignoring his former protégés as worse offense 
that Snape's vicious hate. Consistency is good, I agree, but Horace 
simply ignores those who he does not think worthy , he does not hate 
them, no? And as I said above , he IS teaching  them potions, right?


Saraquel:

<SNIP> 

> I agree Potioncat, I'm not sure that I would call what Slughorn 
does 
> networking.  It is very definitely about power and control, and 
> maintaining privilege for himself.  He sets up the Slug Club as an 
> exclusive must-have accessory, and this flatters those who are 
> invited.  Interestingly, it is Hermione who falls for this 
flattery 
> and effectively becomes Slughorn's potential servant of the 
future - 
> this is the Hermione of SPEW fame, which refuses to understand 
that 
> the house elves embrace their enslavement, (I have difficult with 
> that one too, but then that's a whole different argument) and then 
> falls into Slughorn's sugar coated poison trap.  Oh dear woops, is 
> my loathing for Slughorn and his RL counterparts showing.... 


Alla:

You know, it is so funny that I  only feel that what Slughorn does 
as wrong on the intuitive level, not on the intellectual one.
 Yes, it IS about getting privileges for him, absolutely, but those 
who he takes under his wing, also get his services, no? he 
introduces them to people who can help them get new jobs, achieve a 
lot. He does help those kids a lot, no? Even if he does not really 
aspire to help people for  the joy of it. And I am not being 
sarcastic at all - I think that helping others could bring joy to 
the person who does it. 

Besides while it is clear to me that Slughorn accepts favors, I am 
not sure he wants to control his protégés, I get the feeling that it 
is more like "I know famous people, envy me"

"All ex-students, all signed. You'll notice Barnabas Cliffe, editor 
of the Daily Prophet , he's always interested to hear my take on the 
today's news. And Ambrosius Flume, of Honeydukes - a hamper every 
birthday, and all because I was able to give him an introductory to 
Ciceron Harkiss, who gave him his first job! And at the back - 
you'll see her if you just crane her neck - that's Gwenog Jones, who 
of course captains  the Holyhead Harpies... People are always 
astonished to hear I'm on the first name terms with the Harpies and 
free tickets whenever I use them!" - HBP, p.71


Marianne:
> What bothers me about it is that Slughorn almost seems to be 
> collecting objects rather than people. <SNIP> I think it was when 
he 
> mentions to Harry how he wished he could have had both Black 
> brothers, like they were some sort of valuable antique bookends or 
a 
> pair of rare butterflies that he could capture and pin under 
glass, 
> that made him seem somewhat off to me.

Alla:

I agree - the way he talked about Sirius and Regulus and 
Dumbledore's warning to Harry not to get collected do go together, 
me thinks, but on the other hand I did not get the sense that he was 
talking about Lily as object at all. IMO anyway.




>> Marianne:
> Oh, I'm all for someone, anyone to give Draco a bad time.  But I'd 
> think that Slughorn, who told DD about his hesitance in making 
> himself conspicuous by going back to Hogwards, might have thought 
> that making nice with Draco would be a smart tactical move. Unless 
> he's sure that Daddy Malfoy will never again weild the sort of 
power 
> and influence he's had in the past.  With Vmort running around 
> again, I'm not sure I'd make that bet.


Alla:

Oh, I was not surprised at all. I would think that after running 
from DE for a year, Slughorn would think that the best tactical move 
would be to stay as far away from DE and their offsprings as 
possible.I don't think that Slughorn woud want any kind of
alliance with Azkaban prisoner. JMO of course.



JMO,

Alla