Nature of the Vow: (was:Heroes& Not - What should Snape Have Done?)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 145350

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ornadv" <ornawn at 0...> wrote:
>
> >Ceridwen wrote: 
> > That's why I think it's Dark Magic. It removes choice once
> > the choice to enter into the UV is made. ...edited... The 
> > minute Snape is informed that Draco cannot/will not kill 
> > Dumbledore, then *Snape* must. The UV kicks in. Hate and
> > revulsion on his face, because he has no choice, he cannot
> > stop.
> 
> Orna:
> 
> ...edited...
> It doesn't sound like what we know about other spells to have
> a spell which makes you do acts which involve complex human 
> processes, like thinking, judging, feeling, and have it done
> as a robot, without any choice or submission to it, except the 
> moment you take it. 
>
> ... 
> So I find it difficult to imagine that the UV is a vow which
> works outside Snape's choice, like this. I am not saying it
> isn't binding, or having any consequences, if you don't follow
> it – most certainly it is a powerful spell. ... OTOH we see 
> Snape trying in HBP to help Draco – but he seems free to choose
> the time of intervention, the amount of effort he puts into it. 
> 
> So the point I'm trying to make is that Snape has choice about
> when to act, how to act etc., even if basically he can't break
> the spell (without very grave consequences, IMO) ...
> 
>  Snape's acts in the tower are IMO his decision about how to 
> tackle this situation, with all the complexity he sees there.
> And not an involuntary robotic act produced out of the UV.
> ...
> 
> Orna
>

bboyminn:

I'm not saying I believe Ceridwen's version of events, but I do think
it has some merits if you are willing to look at the middle ground.

I don't think the 'force' of the UV turns you into a mindless robot
who is forced to act. I do believe you can summor a force of
resistance against the compulsion to fulfill the Vow. Yet, as you
summon the will to resist, that starts a cascade that makes the
compulsion to act that much stronger. You may once again summon an
even stronger force of will to preventing you from carrying out the
compulsion, but once again, the amplifier is turned up, and the
compulsion becomes proportionally stronger.

So this ever growing, every amplifying, cascade of compulsion and
resistance increase until you either drop dead from a brain aneurysm
or a heart attack, or you yeild to the compulsion. 

My point is, that while I can't accept the 'robot' idea, I can see the
UV causing an uncontrollable compulsion that you must either yeild to
or die trying to resist. 

Again, I am simply trying to come up with a working explanation of
Ceridwen's idea. I don't necessarily believe it. I'm more in the camp
that says the person swearing the UV has full free will, and that
failure to uphold the Vow has the consequence of Death.

Still, I think we have so very little information on the details of
the Unbreakable Vow that almost any speculation is fair game. For
example, who or what is the judge of the UV? How and what determines
when and if the Vower has failed? 

I've used the example several times, that if Snape maintained the
intent to kill Dumbledore, he could put off the consequences
indefinitely. Also, recently I pointed out that we don't really know
if the person who fails to uphold the Vow drops dead instantly, or if
they die by seeming unrelated causes over time. Could the 'death by
Vow' be getting cancer and taking a year to die? Could a person simply
go into an unending 'wasting' phase that would lead to their death 5
years later? Or could it just be bad luck; hit by a bus at some
indeterminent time in the future? Or, could it be that, as we seem to
be assuming, the person will die relatively soon after failing the
Vow? Still... a minute? ...an hour? ....a day? ...a week? 

This is JKR's magic as a writer, she gives us just enough information
to drive us crazy, but not enough to truly answer the questions that
come up.

Just a thought.