Nature of the Vow: (was:Heroes& Not - What should Snape Have Done?)

[ornadv]

No: HPFGUIDX 145406

>bboyminn:

>I'm not saying I believe Ceridwen's version of events, but I do 
>think it has some merits if you are willing to look at the middle 
>ground.

>I don't think the 'force' of the UV turns you into a mindless robot
>who is forced to act. I do believe you can summor a force of
>resistance against the compulsion to fulfill the Vow. Yet, as you
>summon the will to resist, that starts a cascade that makes the
>compulsion to act that much stronger. You may once again summon an
>even stronger force of will to preventing you from carrying out the
>compulsion, but once again, the amplifier is turned up, and the
>compulsion becomes proportionally stronger.

>So this ever growing, every amplifying, cascade of compulsion and
>resistance increase until you either drop dead from a brain aneurysm
>or a heart attack, or you yeild to the compulsion.

>This is JKR's magic as a writer, she gives us just enough 
>information to drive us crazy, but not enough to truly answer the 
>questions that come up.

>Just a thought.

Orna:
I'm happily joining the drive to be crazy <g>. 

I liked the way you described this internal process of how the UV 
might work, it captures the point where with the same mechanism the 
vow is made unbreakable and the consequences of breaking it take 
place. I prefer it to the unrelated "drop dead" "get ill" or "get 
hit" scenario, which of course, as you said doesn't say anything 
about JKR's intention. 

Now, I like to play along with it further – how would it be possible 
to break an UV, working like this? 
The imperius curse can be broken with force of will, and a 
willingness to suffer - pain, reality, individuality. I think it can 
be done, because the nature of the will is it works with a strong-
willed wizard, enforcing his will on a weak (or off-guard and 
therefore at the moment weak) wizard. So the Anti-force needed is a 
strong will from the cursed person getting stronger-willed than the 
dark wizard's will.

I imagine that perhaps the UV can be tampered with by not working 
with force of will, which might work as an amplifier to the 
compulsion, but by "weakness of will", so to speak. The UV is a 
spell in which a wizard willfully relinquishes his choice in the 
future. It is basically his "too forceful" will, because basically 
human's freedom of choices in future should be kept and honored. 
That's where the point of Dark Magic takes place. 

By weakness of will, I mean diffusing intention, willfulness and 
purpose ness.  Not to fight against the vow, but somehow have your 
mind growing weak in intention. Not to be caught in the "I must"-"I 
must/will not" trap, but something like "a bit of this, a bit of 
that, nothing too enthusiastic or detailed, sort of sloppiness".  
I'm not talking about a psychopathic way of not honoring contracts, 
but of some growing out and away of it, perhaps combined with some 
humbleness (also a way of "weak will") of realizing deeply, that a 
mistake has been done. 
 If you panic and just resist the compulsion, it won't work. But, if 
the person is able to just let his force of will diminish, the 
compulsion might work weaker. A person very good at occlumency, 
would have advantage, in shutting feelings down in one compartment 
of his mind. So he still might do something in the direction, but 
not with all his heart. Writing it down, it reminds me of Snape's 
behavior during the year with Draco – it could be something like 
this, the way he acted. He invited him to meet him, tried to speak 
with him at Christmas, but it didn't sound very persuasive. Snape 
can be much more efficient – see the way he drives the DE out, stops 
them from Crucio Harry, runs to the shack in PoA – not that he is 
always succeeding, but he is more energetic and pointed, IMO.

I agree, that the tower scene is different, because it might stir up 
strong emotions from a DDM!Snape, thus weakening his ability to work 
against the vow. 

Further imagination:  - in the forest, while discussing things with 
DD, the basic plan might have been for Snape to lessen his 
commitment to the vow, and DD trusting his ability to protect the 
school from DE, on one hand, and OTOH be able to persuade Draco to 
give up his mission, and go for the witness-protection-program. Had 
Draco failed to open Hogwarts to the DE, and even now – it was quite 
a possible plan, and I suppose that would influence the UV. The UV 
bound Snape to watch Draco wouldn't come to any harm – that would 
fulfill the vow. The last, difficult part is that "Should it prove 
necessary...if it seems Draco will fail...". Had Draco decided not 
to do it, this part of the vow perhaps wouldn't be able to act as a 
compulsion, since Snape would be saying to it – it's not necessary, 
it's not that Draco is failing". Compulsions act sometimes very 
ritualistic and concrete.  
 
As it was –the worst happened – the DE entered, Draco seemed to be 
failing – the wording turned out to be very exact, because actually 
it seemed like this, and not like him having changed his mind. So 
perhaps you are right, that the vow under the circumstances got the 
strongest it could get. Snape couldn't very well get sloppy or 
unfocused. DD pleading seems to suggest, that Snape (DDM! Of course) 
could have resisted it, but only in the suicidal way you described.

Having said all that, I remembered that the goblet of fire, when 
Harry was chosen, was clearly a moment, where great wizards realized 
that a mistake had occurred, and also that most probably dark magic 
was involved. Still they decided to go ahead with it, and respect 
the binding contract. So there is really every possibility that 
spells don't have any counteraction, and that the one moment you 
have a choice is when you decide to bind yourself in the contract. 
Hmm


Another thought about UV:

I tried to look at potential UV in RW. There are very few life-
choices which are Unbreakable. None are without consequences, but 
altogether unbreakable, unchangeable? I immediately thought about 
marriage, (the UV does so much look like some perverted wedding-
ceremony) but of course in most cultures there are circumstances 
allowing sort of divorces – not without consequences, but still.  
Having children and being responsible for 
looking after them, see 
they come to no harm, is perhaps as near one can get to a sort of 
UV. 

Just too many thoughts, 

Orna