Snape and Prophecy and Harry/Snape as an abuser

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 145588

> Orna:
> Well, yes - I do think Snape expected Voldemort to invite the
> couple for a friendly dinner and toast
 no home-taxi needed. 

Jen: Hah--love that.

Orna:
> So you mean that Snape's remorse (if there was one), was because
> he realized the people concerned were the Potters? I find it a 
> little bit difficult to believe Snape telling himself and DD – as
> long as I didn't think about whom is involved, I was OK with it.
> But now that it's James, who was my dear pal at school and his son 
>(Lily wasn't in the sure hit-list), I can't stand it any more.  I'm
> a bit cynical, but I just say, that I would like something more
> substantial than that.

Jen: I want it to be more substantial than that, too, and will go 
into why later on. Dumbledore's explanation made it sound like your 
above conjecture was pretty much it, though: "But he did not know--
he had no possible way of knowing--which boy Voldemort would hunt 
from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his 
murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew..." (chap. 25, 
p. 512, Bloomsbury). The surprise for Snape was not that Voldemort 
would plan to murder a child, but which child he ultimately chose.

Orna:
> OTOH it might be possible, that once you realize that the killing 
> is not just wizards, muggles, but a person you know – something of 
> the evilness involved may finally hit you. Perhaps his life dept 
> functions into it. <snipped how life debt might play a role> That
> would explain his continuous hatred towards Harry. It's possible, 
> but I don't find it satisfying for genuine remorse.

Jen: No, the life debt doesn't explain the true, deep remorse 
Dumbledore professed Snape felt about the prophecy. In another post 
upthread you suggested this: 

Orna:
> Perhaps: Voldemort has sometimes a sense of perverted dignity
> coupled with a need to prove himself – like in GoF, when he wants 
> to duel with Harry. Like in CoS when he feels he wants to 
> challenge his powers against Harry's.And besides, this wait-and-
> see, as I see it, is not because he has no faith in the prophecy,
> contrary – because he would have wanted to be sure he picked the 
> right boy – he might have wanted to wait. 

Jen: That idea could be a possible out for Snape's actions: His 
first thought, like Harry's, was that Voldemort would do the 
rational thing and wait to see which child was more powerful as he 
grew up. Another possibility is that Snape was already working 
against Voldemort on his own and did overhear the entire propehcy 
but didn't deliver it all to Voldemort, particularly the 'mark him 
as his equal' part. I think we're supposed to take Dumbledore's OOTP 
explanation of the prophecy and the HBP eavesdropping at face-value, 
but there's still the outside chance Snape had his own agenda which 
happened to intersect with Dumbledore's.

Orna: 
> I also don't see why he would be so surprised of the way Voldemort 
> interpreted this prophecy – it had to do with someone who had (or 
> was about to have) a child in July. Snape could figure it out for 
> himself – who was concerned. 
> Two more thoughts I am having – the first evil one: 
> 1) Perhaps Voldemort, who hasn't got anything against killing on a 
> large scale, decided to kill every baby born in July – just in
> case. <snip> Snape's way of relating to Neville is somehow
> suspicious of special significance. Perhaps a way like this 
> to interpret the prophecy may have shakeî Snape more deeply.

Jen: People have argued Snape didn't single out Harry until he 
appeared to act like James (or Snape perceived it that way), or 
Neville until he acted incompetently. But the specific, pointed, 
ongoing problems he has with both children seem beyond that to me. 
Snape being who he is, the emotions come out as anger bordering on 
rage; however, I don't think immense guilt can be ruled out. 
Personally, it would fit very nicely if the explanation for Snape's 
speech about "Fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves...weak 
people....stand no chance against his powers" dovetails with Snape's 
delivery of the prophecy in some way. That he was manipulated in 
that situation much like Draco was, into thinking he was being 
drafted for an important mission only to discover how horrific the 
actual work was, and how merciless Voldemort can be. That ties in to 
another thought from your previous post, Orna:

Orna:
> We know Snape had been a DE. The question IMO is what do we accept 
> for being an acceptable act/s for accepting him to be one of the 
> good guys. It's a really difficult question, because being a DE he 
> is sure to have caused harm, or might even be deaths – directly or 
> non-directly, on top of his part in Potters death. We know from 
> Bellatrix that he probably wasn't very active, slitherin out of 
> action. Probably did a lot of cunning plans, potions and spell-
> inventing, which IMO are also quite harmful. But the question is – 
> what do we expect a change of sides to include?  
> Sirius is on another level - I don't think anybody would really
> send him to Azkaban for the mistake he did. Anybody – except his 
> guilt-feelings. 

Jen: I left out something important upthread about why I was 
comparing Snape and Sirius. Dumbledore called Snape's delivery of 
the prophecy a terrible mistake. Why? It's not on-par with what 
Sirius did in my opinion, which well qualifies as a terrible 
mistake. Sirius was attempting to protect people he loved while 
Snape was putting some child and parents into harm's way. It's not 
that I personally feel Snape should pay endlessly for being a DE, 
especially if he did attempt to safeguard the Potters and became a 
spy 'at great risk to himself'. It's more that I'm still stunned 
about the explanation Dumbledore gave Harry when confronted with the 
eavesdropping incident. Dumbledore knows excusing Snape incites 
Harry, and yet he employs that strategy over and over. And why would 
he excuse *anyone* for selling out a baby to Voldemort? That's 
pretty despicable. Either we're supposed to be switching into 
fantasy mode here since we're talking about a prophecy, or there's 
more going on.

That's at the core to me of all the Snape stuff, not just why 
Dumbledore trusts Severus Snape so completely but what fuels his 
need to protect him so thoroughly. Is it guilt for what he asks 
Snape to do? Something he knows about Snape's past? Something about 
Dumbledore's past? I know I'm asking the million-dollar question 
here, but so far none of the explanations ring completely true for 
me as to why Dumbledore would sacrifice SO much for Snape, including 
all his carefully laid plans for Harry. Maybe Dumbledore honestly 
doesn't think Harry's growing hatred for Snape will interfere with 
his protection against the lure of Voldemort's power, even though 
intense hatred, fear and other negative emotions combined with dark 
arts seem to be pavers in the road to ruination in Potterverse. 

The only other plausible explanation I can think of is that 
Dumbledore's hands are tied in some way that Harry is unaware of 
yet. Something keeps Dumbledore from actively attempting to 
intervene in the Snape/Harry relationship even though it's obviously 
gone sour, and I hope the answer is not "plot mechanism".


Orna:
> 2) Another thought was, that perhaps Voldemort who is great in 
> sadistic moves towards his servants, wanted Snape to have an
> active part in killing Harry. The same way he used Wormtail to get
> Harry, sensing somehow that Wormtail was reluctant to do it. I'm 
> not sure he knew about Wormtail being saved by Harry, and Snape 
> being saved by James, but he might sense something there, and it 
> would be quite in his nature and his amusement to order Snape some
> active involvement in killing James. That might be a moment when 
> Snape wouldn't want to be in it any more. 

Jen: This reminded me of the Draco scenario again, too. I would view 
this as a mitigating circumstance, but am not sure why Dumbledore 
would withold that information from Harry once he found out about 
the eavesdropping. Harry has proven himself very capable of seeing 
people in a new way with more information, even Snape after he saw 
the Pensieve scene. What gives? What could be more important to 
Dumbledore than cultivating a decent working relationship between 
the two people he depends on the most for defeating Voldemort? 
Surely six years into the endeavor he's figured out his trust of 
Severus Snape and insistence on Harry calling him Professor haven't 
accomplished anything.

Jen