Dumbledore the General

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 124236


> Betsy:
> I agree with Pippin that it was the Ministry losing the first 
> war.  Has the Order ever been a legitimate branch of the 
> government?  It's certainly made up of folk of whom the Ministry 
> disapproves, Muggleborns, half-breeds, at least one werewolf.  I
> have my doubts that the Ministry was even aware of Dumbledore's 
> merry band of brothers.  And if they were aware, I'm sure any 
> intelligence gathered, or advice given was ignored.

You could be right that in the first war the Order was what was 
standing between Voldemort and total victory against the Ministry 
but in the current conflict he is doing very little IMO.  The fact 
that he is not affiliated with the government gives them greater 
power to act, not less.   
 
> I'm sure of that, because as Pippin also pointed out, all of the 
> tactics you suggested, Phoenixgod, that Dumbledore frowns on, were 
> actually used by the Ministry in the first war.  And all those 
> tactics did was push more and more folks to Voldemort's side.  

The Ministry was using Aurors like a club, breaking down doors like 
Nazi soldiers left and right. The US made the same mistake in 
Vietnam and we're making the same mistake in Iraq. You can't club 
your way through a cancerous tumor. Scalpels can be used quietly to 
cut it away. The order could have been that scalpel. They could have 
worked within the shadows like Intelligence services do every day 
throughout the real world.  The wizarding population never need to 
know everything that went on. 

> As far as simply taking out known Death Eaters, I doubt the 
> purebloods are easy to take out stealthly.  Purebloods have 
> survived in a hostile environment (surrounded by Muggles) for 
> generations.  I'm quite sure their ancestral homes (even the 
> leaking, moth-eaten ones) are incredibly well warded.

I put forth the tactics I thought would work best. I never said it 
would be a cake walk (although considering the storm trooper-like 
aim of the DEs it may well have been). But it certainly is doable, 
especially since the Death Eaters like Lucius were using the red 
tape of the Ministry to shield themselves and the Order works 
outside those lines.
 
> Plus, I don't think they were that easy to identify.  The Dark 
> Mark seems to come and go (Sirius didn't seem aware of it in GoF),
> and the Death Eaters seem to mask their identity even from each 
> other.  So I'm not sure that Snape would have had that large a list
> of names for Dumbledore.

If we are talking about the second Voldemort War then there 
certainly was a list of names that could have been spied upon or 
manipulated. All those DEs who were *imperio'ed* had their names in 
the court record.  Dumbledore had fifteen years to prepare for his 
return and lay the foundation for a swift crack down against them. 
But he didn't. 
 
> As far as the war today - I disagree that Dumbledore has been 
> merely reacting, and I also disagree that he's been doing all that 
> bad of a job in fighting Voldemort.

Name me a single thing that DD did that was proactive. Guarding 
Harry wasn't. It was a passive preparation against an assassination 
attempt.  DD could have gone after the DEs or dark creatures most 
likely to go after Harry, but he didn't.

He didn't do anything with his ace in the hole, the prophecy. There 
are so many ways to trick, manipulate, and force Voldemort's hand 
using that gem, my mind literally boggles. He just guarded it until 
Voldemort was able to trick Harry into going after it. Not the most 
proactive thing in the world. 

He didn't get Harry magical training to teach him how to use all 
that raw talent of his. Instead he left Harry to languish alone for 
two months. And Harry is the most important person on the side of 
light in this particlar war!

He didn't use Sirius, a skilled animagus, to do anything for the 
order. Even if Sirius had to stay in #12, wouldn't a teacher skilled 
enough to teach Wormtail of all people, be good enough to teach 
Molly the she-bear how to become a she-bear in truth? Or to teach 
Tonks to become a tiny and stealthy chameleon? Or to teach Kingsley 
how to become the king of all cats, a lion? Wouldn't being animagi 
make every order member that much more valuable?  Sirius was a 
wasted resource. He would never have gone stir crazy if he had some 
teachin' to do. Or anything else to do for that matter. 

Why didn't he do what Hermione thought of five months later and get 
some kind of interview with an alternative news outlet to counteract 
the daily prophet? Is Hermione really that much smarter than DD?

What did DD do that was so proactive? Because I am just not seeing 
it.

> Betsy: 
> Really, Voldemort's only victory has been gaining a body.

Not so. Voldemort scored a victory in being able to lay low for a 
whole year. Who knows what sort of nefarious plan he was cooking up 
with all that down time and the nearly limitless wealth of a group 
of pureblooded servants. Was he just laying on a couch in Malfoy 
Manor eating grapes and sending visons to Harry, or was he out 
working dark magics and laying plans for his immortality and 
conquest? I know which one I think happened.

Harry is the one that forced the issue. His actions, rash as they 
were, finally ended the cold war the Order and DEs were engaging 
in. He caused Voldemort to be revealed to the world which is going 
to force the ministry into action.  It was also Harry's rash action 
which revealed Lucius Malfoy for what he was. Not Dumbledore's.

The stalemate ended because of Harry and his actions, not 
Dumbledore's.

The greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince the world 
he didn't exist. And for a whole year the devil didn't exist for the 
Wizarding World.

Because Dumbledore let him.

phoenixgod2000

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