Did JKR cheat with the prophecy?

[lupinlore]

No: HPFGUIDX 124870


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn at y...> wrote:
> 
> > Lupinlore: 
> > It seems to me that a strong case can be made that JKR has cheated
> > rather badly by introducing the prophecy as worded in OOTP.  I 
> > don't mean that she has done something immoral or even something 
> > uninteresting from a literary point of view.  However, she has 
> > tried to emphasize, time and again, the power of personal choice.  
> > Then she introduces a prophecy that, by its very nature, so strongly 
> > restricts the scope of personal choice as to make it meaningless, or
> > nearly so, in some contexts.
> 
> a_svirn:
> 
> I disagree. LV CHOSE to strike thereby making prophesy real. 
we ought to be more suspicious by now.

Well, the prophecy does say "The Dark Lord WILL mark him as his own."
 If the prophecy is true and therefore unavoidable, Voldy really
DIDN'T have a choice in striking, as it was already foreordained.  His
only choice was in striking Harry rather than Neville.  And even there
he was sharply restricted, as the prophecy foreordains it will be one
of those two out of all the wizard children born that year.

So you see, ultimately you can't have a true prophecy and freedom of
choice at the same time.  If the prophecy is true, it means the
prophet has seen what will happen in the future.  That in turn means
the future is fixed and freedom of choice is an illusion, since
choices have already been determined before they are made -- indeed
before the people involved even realize their IS an (apparent) choice.

Now, you can try to put a subtle spin on it by saying that true
prophecies don't DETERMINE choice, they only PREDICT choice with 100%
precision.  But once again, when you analyze that carefully it boils
down to the future being fixed, and freedom of choice being an
illusion. The arguments (which have been exhaustively explored in the
religious context of divine predestination) boil down to the fact that
a choice that can be predicted with 100% precision cannot, under any
reasonable or logical understanding of the term, be a FREE choice.*


Lupinlore


* Providing the prophecy is made from within the boundaries of time,
which is not necessarily the case when dealing with divine prophecy
but certainly is in the case of magical prophecies, and DEFINITELY is
in the case of HP.  As Sybil Trelawney is not a divine being, she must
stand within the flow of time to make her prophecy and therefore the
negation of free will clicks into place.  As a divine being can, in
theory, stand outside of time to utter a prophecy, there are still
ways a true prophecy can be made and preserve free will, providing
that said divine being DOES NOT utter the prophecy within time (for
instance there are ways God could make a true prophecy to an angel
concerning something occuring on Earth and still preserve free will).
 However, if the divine being utters the prophecy WITHIN time, for
instance through a prophet or a seer, all of the advantages fall away
and free will is negated once again (so if God communicated the same
prophecy through a prophet on Earth, the negation of free will takes
hold).  

This also assumes there is only one timeline that only flows one way.
 If there are multiple timelines that can flow both ways once again
you can have true prophecies that allow for free will.  Under this
scenario Voldy's choice to strike in the present CREATES the prophecy
in the past (you seem to be hinting at this in the statement about
Voldy's choice making the prophecy real).  However under this scenario
no one can ever be sure of anything, as the timeline is constantly
shifting (or we are shifting among timelines, it sort of amounts to
the same thing) but we don't ever know it since our memories are
constantly changing to accomodate whatever form the timeline takes (or 
whatever timeline we land in, if you prefer to look at it that way). 
Understandably, as this theory could never really be tested by logical
analysis (only by empirical analysis of someone standing outside the
timelines, a divine being or an angel), this isn't a very popular
position among people who argue about such things.