[HPforGrownups] Potterverse Destiny (was Re: C. S. Lewis and Potterverse Destiny)

[Vivamus]

No: HPFGUIDX 121378

> Vivamus:
> > I do, however, believe in destiny (with a small d).  By 
> that I mean, 
> > the intent of the Creator for our future, rather than a 
> personalized 
> > deity of some kind.  As a Christian, I think of the Creator beingx 
> > all-knowing and all-powerful, but NOT all- controlling.  He 
> sets our 
> > path before us, but we don't HAVE to walk it.  We are children, not 
> > slaves.
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> Okay, I believe I've got you now.  Basically you're saying that small-
> d destiny is the path that a diety would *desire* or *prefer* that we 
> take, although we are perfectly free to screw it up and go in a 
> different direction.  

Vivamus:
Very close, but I guess I do mean something a bit more definite than that.
If the deity actually knows our choices ahead of time, then prophecy would
reflect how things *will* end up without outside interference -- not because
we can't do anything else, but because that will be the result of free
choices yet to be made (but already known.)  In the case of destiny, I do
think there would be help along the way from the deity, which might come in
the form of seemingly random events, or directly from lieutenants following
the deity's instruction.  So the deity isn't just hoping we follow a certain
path; the path is certain, unless something OUTSIDE the universe in which
the prophecy is made acts upon it to interfere.  The only thing outside the
universe of a prophecy I can think of is knowledge of the prophecy itself.
So Harry, knowing his destiny, has for the first time a genuine chance to
abandon it.  DD, knowing the destiny all along, has always had the
opportunity to interfere with it; hence his caution. 

Hmmm.   Isn't there some comment in the HP books about knowledge of a
prophecy being a dangerous thing?  Perhaps this is why LV was so intent on
getting the prophecy -- he could only defeat it if he knew the whole thing.

> SSSusan:
> Thus, as I have argued here before, Harry *is* perfectly free to 
> choose to NOT fight Voldemort.  It's his destiny to meet up with him, 
> but Harry could *choose* to not prepare, to hide, to try to avoid the 
> meeting.  Or he could choose to face up to the challenge, do all he 
> can to prepare, and go willingly into the battle.  
> 
> Right so far?

Spot on.

> Capital-F Fate, on the other hand, is something which is predest-- , 
> no, wait -- predetermined, something which has a *single*, can't-be-
> avoided-no-matter-what outcome.

Exactly.
 
> If you are correct that this small-d destiny is, in fact, what JKR 
> believes, I prefer it as well to capital-F Fate.  It leaves room for 
> Capital-C Choice. :-)  

Me, too!  (That fruit was in the garden for a *reason*.)
 
> I do still have a question about small-d destiny, though:  Is 
> different from hope?  That is, does the deity just *hope* the subject 
> will move along the preferred path?  Or does the deity give little 
> nudges and provide special opportunities to help the subject along 
> towards the preferred path?

Vivamus: 
I would say that it is definitely different from hope.  It is more a
concrete prediction, but based on things that can be changed.  Since all
other stimuli are supposedly taken into account, and the choices known ahead
of time, it is more like looking at future events and describing them -- but
they can change if outside things affect them.  In the case of a particular
destiny, I would think that the planned actions of the deity to help things
along would be part of the equation, as it were -- not to violate
all-important choice, but to help circumstances along in such a way that
makes the desired choices easier (or even achievable.)

> Vivamus:
> > DD is a wonderfully complex character, if you think of him in terms 
> > of this concept of destiny ....
> <snip> 
> > JKR has said DD is the epitome of goodness, or something like 
> > that.  So he is powerful, kind, and good, as well as very, very 
> > smart.  He knows Harry has a destiny to fight LV, but he knows the 
> > future is not set, and destiny can be thwarted.  If he does too 
> > much, he will mess things up.  
> <snip>
> > Once Harry is at Hogwarts, DD watches over him constantly (perhaps 
> > that is what those spectacles are for.)  He can now give more 
> > guidance and help, but again, he does not want to interfere with 
> > the destiny that is before Harry.
> > With great wisdom, he returns the invisibility cloak to Harry, and 
> > lets him do absurdly dangerous things -- not because he thinks 
> > Harry can't get hurt, but because Harry seems to be walking the 
> > path of his destiny, and DD MUST allow him to be prepared for what 
> > is ahead. 
> <snip>
> > He only interferes as much as he would normally do in the course of 
> > things, and often less (as when he sees the kids under the cloak in 
> > Hagrid's hut.)
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> Are you equating DD with the diety?  Or are you saying simply that DD 
> knows about the destiny and so has a role to play in it?  
> 
> It seems to me that, if I'm right that DD set up the SS "obstacle 
> course" as a test of where Harry stood in terms of skill & intention 
> and to find out just what he's made of, it would fit with what you're 
> saying about how DD sees his role, wouldn't it?

Vivamus:
Great point!   He certainly is a godlike figure in many ways, isn't he?  No,
I think JKR is coming from a general Christian ethos, so she probably would
not set an individual up that high.   I think of DD more as someone who
understands, from his depth of wisdom and experience, the way life works.
He wants to do his part to help the destiny come about, but mostly that
means not getting in the way -- and I don't think he created the destiny in
the first place, although I suppose JKR could take that direction, couldn't
she?  (Wouldn't that be an odd irony -- to find out that the series has
really been about DD and not Harry from the beginning?)

The obstacle course of SS does indeed fit that, doesn't it?  Good for you; I
hadn't thought of that.
 
> Vivamus: 
> > Harry often wonders why DD doesn't help him more.  I think we'll 
> > see DD do that much more in the next book, as Harry becomes more 
> > set on his path. Before that happens, though, I think Harry is 
> > going to step away from his destiny in HBP.  His grief, guilt, 
> > pain, etc., are going to get the best of him, and he will turn 
> > aside altogether.  That is when we will see DD step in
> > as an active friend and counselor to Harry, as he has not been up 
> > to this point.  As long as Harry stays on point, DD must keep hands 
> > off, to keep from interfering with Harry's destiny.  When Harry 
> > turns aside, DD will be free to act more directly, because there 
> > is, in effect, nothing to lose.
> 
> SSSusan:
> Which, again, leads me to the same question I asked above.  In your 
> mind, is DD the deity or just a major player in the course of 
> events?  If the latter, how does DD know so much about Harry's 
> destiny?  Is it because of the prophecy?

Vivamus:
Most here seem to think that there is more to that prophecy than we've been
told, and I think they're right.  DD knows more about Harry at the start
than the prophecy seems to tell.  I hope we'll find out what, how, and why
in the next book, but I still see him as a major player (an angel, if you
will -- messenger of the gods) but NOT a deity.