Potterverse Destiny (was Re: C. S. Lewis and Potterverse Destiny)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 121375


> > > Vivamus, who absolutely believes in destiny (with a small 
> > > d), but also believes it is also dependent upon free will
 
> > SSSusan:
> > Okay, Vivamus, now you're going to have to speak to the 
> > difference between destiny & fate for me! :-)

Vivamus:

> I agree with JKR on "fate".  I dislike the idea that a random 
> universe creates truly non-random events, and I don't like the idea 
> of a capricious deity playing dice with our lives in one form or 
> another, either.   I think both ways of looking at it are attempts 
> by superstitious humans to explain why life often does seem to be 
> non-random -- and I think it very often IS non-random.  In today's 
> terms, I think that references to "fate" are often simply ways to 
> justify letting ourselves be chips in the millrace, rather than 
> paddling to where WE want to go -- or as excuses for bad behavior.  
> I find that attitude quite offensive, as, apparently, does JKR.   
> (THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY ((C)1911) defines destiny [in this case 
> synonymous with fate] as "A tyrant's authority for crime and fool's 
> excuse for failure.")
> 
> I do, however, believe in destiny (with a small d).  By that I 
> mean, the intent of the Creator for our future, rather than a 
> personalized deity of some kind.  As a Christian, I think of the 
> Creator beingx all-knowing and all-powerful, but NOT all-
> controlling.  He sets our path before us, but we don't HAVE to walk 
> it.  We are children, not slaves.  


SSSusan:
Okay, I believe I've got you now.  Basically you're saying that small-
d destiny is the path that a diety would *desire* or *prefer* that we 
take, although we are perfectly free to screw it up and go in a 
different direction.  

Thus, as I have argued here before, Harry *is* perfectly free to 
choose to NOT fight Voldemort.  It's his destiny to meet up with him, 
but Harry could *choose* to not prepare, to hide, to try to avoid the 
meeting.  Or he could choose to face up to the challenge, do all he 
can to prepare, and go willingly into the battle.  

Right so far?

Capital-F Fate, on the other hand, is something which is predest-- , 
no, wait -- predetermined, something which has a *single*, can't-be-
avoided-no-matter-what outcome.

If you are correct that this small-d destiny is, in fact, what JKR 
believes, I prefer it as well to capital-F Fate.  It leaves room for 
Capital-C Choice. :-)  

I do still have a question about small-d destiny, though:  Is 
different from hope?  That is, does the deity just *hope* the subject 
will move along the preferred path?  Or does the deity give little 
nudges and provide special opportunities to help the subject along 
towards the preferred path?


Vivamus:
> DD is a wonderfully complex character, if you think of him in terms 
> of this concept of destiny ....
<snip> 
> JKR has said DD is the epitome of goodness, or something like 
> that.  So he is powerful, kind, and good, as well as very, very 
> smart.  He knows Harry has a destiny to fight LV, but he knows the 
> future is not set, and destiny can be thwarted.  If he does too 
> much, he will mess things up.  
<snip>
> Once Harry is at Hogwarts, DD watches over him constantly (perhaps 
> that is what those spectacles are for.)  He can now give more 
> guidance and help, but again, he does not want to interfere with 
> the destiny that is before Harry.
> With great wisdom, he returns the invisibility cloak to Harry, and 
> lets him do absurdly dangerous things -- not because he thinks 
> Harry can't get hurt, but because Harry seems to be walking the 
> path of his destiny, and DD MUST allow him to be prepared for what 
> is ahead. 
<snip>
> He only interferes as much as he would normally do in the course of 
> things, and often less (as when he sees the kids under the cloak in 
> Hagrid's hut.)


SSSusan:
Are you equating DD with the diety?  Or are you saying simply that DD 
knows about the destiny and so has a role to play in it?  

It seems to me that, if I'm right that DD set up the SS "obstacle 
course" as a test of where Harry stood in terms of skill & intention 
and to find out just what he's made of, it would fit with what you're 
saying about how DD sees his role, wouldn't it?


Vivamus: 
> Harry often wonders why DD doesn't help him more.  I think we'll 
> see DD do that much more in the next book, as Harry becomes more 
> set on his path. Before that happens, though, I think Harry is 
> going to step away from his destiny in HBP.  His grief, guilt, 
> pain, etc., are going to get the best of him, and he will turn 
> aside altogether.  That is when we will see DD step in
> as an active friend and counselor to Harry, as he has not been up 
> to this point.  As long as Harry stays on point, DD must keep hands 
> off, to keep from interfering with Harry's destiny.  When Harry 
> turns aside, DD will be free to act more directly, because there 
> is, in effect, nothing to lose.

SSSusan:
Which, again, leads me to the same question I asked above.  In your 
mind, is DD the deity or just a major player in the course of 
events?  If the latter, how does DD know so much about Harry's 
destiny?  Is it because of the prophecy?

Siriusly Snapey Susan