Salazar & Slytherin(was Re: Draco and Slytherin House (was: Harsh Morality)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 121518


Betsy previously:
But Dumbledore, on the other hand, has a Slytherin (Head of House no 
less) as one of his chief assistants and he listed *positive* traits 
of Slytherins to Harry. 
  
Alla:
<snip>
Could you please give me a quote where Dumbledore lists POSITIVE 
traits of Slytherins to Harry?
Because if we are talking about this one:
"Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar 
Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare 
gift, Parseltongue - resourcefulness - determination - a certain 
disregard for rules," he added, his mustache quivvering again. "Yet 
the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor. You know why that was. 
Think". -p.333, 
> Cos, paperback.
> >I frankly do NOT see any sign of Dumbledore praising those 
traits.  
> Salazar prized them, yes, Dumbledore - nope.<
> 
Betsy:
Wah-huh?  You don't think telling someone they're resourceful and 
determined is positive?  If I run those words through my WordPerfect 
thesauras and fill in the antonyms provided it would have Dumbledore 
calling Harry inept and submissive.  Would that have been better?  
If Harry had not been resourceful and determined, spoke Parseltongue 
and had a "certain disregard for rules," Ginny's corpse would still 
be rotting in the Chamber, Hogwarts would be closed, and Voldemort 
would be that much stonger.  Those traits (except for the 
Parseltongue) have brought Harry through just about every challenge 
he's faced. And Dumbledore has rewarded Harry and praised Harry and 
encouraged Harry the whole way through.  Dumbledore *loves* that 
Harry is resourceful and determined.  And he twinkles his eyes at 
the "certain disregard for rules."  Hell, Dumbledore showed a 
disregard for rules when he told Fudge he wouldn't actually go along 
quietly in OotP.


Alla:

Actually, that was NOT my question. It does NOT matter what I think 
about those traits of character. :o) 
You argued that Dumbledore named positive traits of Slytherin to 
Harry and I argued that we don't see Dumbledore judging those traits 
of character one way or another.
As a  matter of fact, resourcefullness by itself is a neutral trait 
to me, but it can be applied to doing bad thing or good things.
Funnily enough, I don't see Harry as being very ... resorceful in 
the chamber. Courageous.... yes. Resourceful... not really.


But that is just my interpretation fo course. All that I am saying 
that Dumbledore does not necessarily praise Slytherin traits of 
character to Harry in this quote.

I would say he praises Harry for the fact that contrary to having 
all those traits of character he ended up being in Gryffindor.

Something else is interesting to me in this quote. "Certain 
disregard for rules"... Isn't it supposed to be Gryffindor trait?

Maybe I am confused.


Alla previously:
> <snip>
Persecution of magical folks... Sure, "witches burnings". In real 
world, many innocents died because they were suspected of being 
witches, right?
But don't forget that in JKR world REAL witches were not afraid of 
those burnings and saved themselves, while who really suffered were 
muggle folks.
So, seems that Salasar was not really rational in his fears of 
persecution, IF he had such, which I don't remember in canon.
Again, if you are talking about other kind of persecution, could you 
please refer me to canon? 

Betsy:
When Prof. Binns talks about the founding of Hogwarts he says, "[The 
Founders] built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, 
for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and 
witches and wizards suffered much persecution." (CoS Scholastic 
paperback, pg. 150)  Binns further says that Salazar, "disliked 
taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be 
untrustworthy," (ibid).

If the Founders (all four of them) were worried enough about 
persecution that they built Hogwarts in a remote location, it seems 
to me they had some basis on which to rest their fears.  Plus, an 
adult witch or wizard may have been able to thwart an angry Muggle 
mob bent on burning (or pressing, or stoning or drowning or 
countless other witch-killing ways) but I wonder how a child would 
have fared?  One of the big tenets of the WW is secrecy.  Their 
whole lives revolve around keeping their existence from the 
Muggles.  I don't think it's a stretch to think there may have been 
a sufficently horrifying reason to detach themselves so competely 
from society.

Alla:

To me there is a HUGE difference between desire for secrecy from 
Muggles indeed maintained by all four Founders AND Salasar's 
official exlcusion from his house muggle borns witches and wisards.
It looked to me that if Salasar had his way, none of the houses 
would have accepted muggle borns.

So,it seems to me that other three were pretty much united in not 
allowing Salasar to do that. 
And yes they were friends in the beginning, maybe till they did not 
the huge difference in their views on teaching?


And I think that wisard child would have nanaged to make a fire 
harmless, because I think that was subconscious magic at work, but 
that is just speculation or course.




Betsy:
But Harry's not angry about the "five years of emotional abuse."  
He's furious at Snape because Sirius is dead.  And Snape is no more 
culpable for Sirius' death than Harry, so his anger is not logical.  


Alla:

Well, we obviously differ on this one. :o) I view Harry's anger at 
Snape as being angry for EVERYTHING, including Sirius' death. 


Betsy:
Like I said, I'm not willing to put money on it, but I really, 
really, really hope it's Draco. :)  Ah well.  Time will tell.

Alla:

I am willing to bet 1000 galleons that it is NOT Draco. :o) Any 
takers?


Just my opinion,

Alla