Snape and Occlumency

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 121673


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evita2fr" <Snarryfan at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Alla :
> >
> > Oh, another quick question, Carol. You just said in your other post 
> > that you trust Dumbledore and Hermione as JKR spoke people in their 
> > trust of Snape, right?
> > 
> > So, here we have Hermione speaking up that anybody would feel shaky 
> > from attack on their mind. Do you think that she is also correct 
> and 
> > weakened mental defenses are AT LEAST often sideeffect of the 
> > Occlumency? Because if you answer in the positive, I think that at 
> > least makes Snape guilty of not warning Harry to take it easy after 
> > the lesson.
> > 
> > Just my opinion,
> 
Christelle:
> But how Snape could know about this? Like I try to explain in the 
> post #121612 (note the try, it was late), it's a completely new 
> situation.
> 
> The pains are in his scar, by his link with Voldie, not his brain.
> 
> Before him, those who learn Occlumency *couldn't* feeling strange 
> pain, because, as far as we know, Harry's scar is the first one to 
> exist.

Annemehr:
That was a good argument, and something to keep in mind.  But again,
apparently Dumbledore *did* know about it, as he told Harry that he
believed nothing could be more dangerous than opening Harry's mind
further to Voldemort while in Dumbledore's presence.  "Opening Harry's
mind further to Voldemort" *means* through their unique connection,
which involves the scar, and the connection being active has always
involved scar pain.

This is not necessarily to blame Snape, however, since I can easily
believe that Dumbledore may not have warned Snape about the effect. 
It may have been dangerous for Snape to have this knowledge while
opening Harry's mind to Voldemort while in Snape's presence, for
instance.  Rather, as Dumbledore expected Snape to overcome his
feelings about James to teach Harry, he may also have expected Harry
to soldier on through this side-effect until he learned Occlumency and
closed his mind.


Christelle:
> There are also the difference in the attacks.
> 
> An *intern* attack of legilimency (like voldie does) is unheard. They 
> doesn't know how the Occlumency can help or influence or do anything.
> 
> They improvise.

Annemehr:
Even at the end of the book, my impression is that Dumbledore was sure
that Occlumency would have worked if Harry had learned it. Dumbledore
does not say that trying to have Harry learn Occlumency was a mistake,
only that in believing Snape could teach it, he made an error.

It seems to be part of a pattern with Dumbledore, that he can
anticipate the effects of the connection between Voldemort and Harry,
even if such a connection is unique in the experience of the WW.  In
PS/SS, he seemed to know that the scar would be useful.  In CoS, he
knew about the transfer of powers from Voldemort to Harry, and in GoF
he certainly showed no surpise about Harry having visions of LV in
dreams.  The whole plot of OoP was guided by Dumbledore's anticipating
that Voldemort would discover the connection himself and then try to
influence and possess Harry through it.  Even if Harry is the only one
 known to have survived an AK curse, Dumbledore seems to know enough
about what LV may have done to gain immortality, about the AK curse
itself, and about the Ancient Magic that Lily tapped into to deduce
the resulting connection and its effects.

Finally, I do think it is possible that any Occlumens may be aware of
the effect of one's mental defenses becoming weaker while learning. 
Remember that Harry successfully repelled Snape on *the first try,*
when the memory of Cho came up.  Perhaps this is actually common in
any Occlumency student, who then fails to have any success on further
attempts as their defenses weaken until, gradually, the technique is
mastered.  In this scenario, Snape would have known about the effect
and ought to have warned Harry -- if the lessons are generally known
to make one's mind more vulnerable, it is an easy deduction to suppose
they would make Harry's mind more vulnerable to Voldemort.

So, either only Dumbledore knew and didn't tell Snape, or Snape also
knew, and didn't tell Harry. Either way, it undermined Harry's
confidence in the lessons.

Annemehr