All about Lupin (and a little about Tolkien)

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 122010


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" 
<R.Vink2 at c...> wrote:

> 
> Renee:
> In a way, you have a higher opinion of Lupin than I have, if you 
> think he's of the same stature as Saruman; I don't put him at 
such a  level (but then, I don't interpret JKR's remark that he's a 
great  man the way you do).
> To me, this analogy simply doesn't work. Saruman turns out to 
be  evil the first time we 'see' him in action (in Gandalf's account 
in  the Council of Elrond), even though he has been mentioned 
before.  Unlike Lupin, he's unmasked quite early in the story, he 
never  builds any kind of relationship with the main character, he 
never  protects, helps or supports him in any way and the main 
character  doesn't regard him with anything remotely resembling 
affection. 
> Rather than being an example of 'you can't trust anyone even if 
 they're being nice' he's a prime example of the corruption of 
power  from an early stage of LotR onward.   <

Pippin:
True, Tolkien's not as ruthless with his good guys as Rowling. 
Only Faramir is allowed to imagine the agony of knowing that  a 
kindly and beloved protector fell into evil -- "Boromir, O Boromir!  
what did she say to  you, the Lady that dies not?  What did she 
see? What woke in your heart then?" And he's partly consoled by 
the thought that whether he erred or not, Boromir died well. But in 
Rowling, people have to live with their mistakes.

The moral, in both cases, is not, 'you can't trust anyone even if  
they're being nice'. The moral is, 'people should be trusted 
according to  the choices they make, not  their kindly manner.' It's 
a minor point in Tolkien, but a major one in Rowling, IMO. The 
Dursleys  shower their child in kindness and it doesn't mean 
Dudley, er, diddly.

Renee:
> Lupin must have done so, or DD wouldn't accept him in the 
renewed  Order of the Phoenix. He just didn't do it in Harry's 
presence.     <

Pippin:
*Does* Dumbledore trust everyone in the Order? Lupin is never 
allowed to be alone in Harry's presence after PoA. And what is 
Dumbledore checking for, when he sends Phineas to 
Grimmauld Place to see if "the coast is clear"? 

 Lupin's always a part of Harry's escort in OOP, *except* when 
he's most vulnerable, visiting Mr. Weasley right after the snake 
vision. And we're specifically told it's not the full moon. 

Interesting that no one attacks Lupin in the MoM, isn't it? What if 
Dumbledore knows the DE's won't attack if it'd mean nailing their 
own spy? 

While Hermione trusts  Lupin, something seems to hold Harry 
back. When his scar hurts in GoF, he writes to Sirius, and never 
thinks of Lupin, and when he needs to talk about his father's 
past, it's Sirius he particularly wants, though Lupin could have 
answered the questions just as well.

> Renee:
> Harry's the hero, but he's also going through a learning 
process. He  can do both: being helped, and (therefore) helping 
someone else.  This makes more sense to me, a matter of input 
and output. And Lupin's detached attitude doesn't prevent him 
from helping Harry  when it's necessary (Patronus), keeping him 
from running through the  Veil (did you ever explain why Lupin did 
this if he's ESE?<snip>. The way he is at the end of OotP, he is 
unfit  to help Snape; Harry himself needs help first.       
> 
Pippin:
Harry's help is going to come from his own generation, I think, 
from Luna, who shows that your sense of  worth need not 
depend on what others think of you, and Neville who shows that 
you don't have to be proud to be brave. 

You did notice, perhaps, that Lupin didn't actually teach Harry to 
produce a corporeal patronus? He stopped the lessons while 
Harry was still only able to produce a silver vapor -- not enough 
to drive a dementor away.

As for Lupin and the veil, Dumbledore had turned and was 
watching and everyone still thought Harry had the prophecy. 
Voldemort would not  be  best pleased if Harry  went through the 
veil,  bearing the prophecy with him, while, as far as he knows, 
there is another child who could yet fulfill it. 

Pippin
never bored with Tolkien/Rowling comparisons