All about Lupin (and a little about Snape)

[Renee]

No: HPFGUIDX 121931


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> 
> Pippin:
> My, my, you *have* been paying attention. I'm flattered!

Renee:
I'll take that as a compliment on my memory. Thanks!    

<snip> 
> Renee:
> in whodunits, villains of this stature do have the tendency to  
> occupy the centre of the stage at the end. So what it boils down 
> to,  I guess, is that I'm simply refusing to believe in the HP 
> series 
> as a whodunit with such a demasque at the end. I'm afraid no 
> amount of  theorising will bridge the gap between my HP series 
> and yours.    
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> I dunno -- LOTR is high fantasy. But consider Saruman. He's 
> introduced as  the Head of the Order, the White Wizard who 
> drove the Enemy out of Mirkwood. A light bringer, and one who 
> drove away an evil entity, eh? Even though he's already 
> supposed to be succumbing to evil at this point and there's a 
> hint or two that Gandalf would be wise to trust him less than he 
> does.
> 
>  But even though he doublecrosses Gandalf and  Theoden, is 
> responsible for the deaths of Boromir and slew of lesser 
> characters, and dies in the last ditch (pace Peter Jackson),  he 
> doesn't for a moment threaten Sauron's place as the arch-villain. 
> It's Sauron who corrupted him and inspires his every move, even 
> when Saruman thinks he's acting for himself, and Sauron who 
> preoccupies the heroes.
> 
> Saruman  could easily overshadow the Hobbits if Tolkien let him, 
> but he doesn't. By the time "Sharkey" is unmasked, in a tiny but 
> nonetheless distinguishable mystery plot,  they have grown and 
> he has dwindled, so much that he's undone by his whining, 
> miserable servant, a fellow by the name of Wormtongue. 
> Hmmm. 

Renee:
In a way, you have a higher opinion of Lupin than I have, if you 
think he's of the same stature as Saruman; I don't put him at such a 
level (but then, I don't interpret JKR's remark that he's a great 
man the way you do).
To me, this analogy simply doesn't work. Saruman turns out to be 
evil the first time we 'see' him in action (in Gandalf's account in 
the Council of Elrond), even though he has been mentioned before. 
Unlike Lupin, he's unmasked quite early in the story, he never 
builds any kind of relationship with the main character, he never 
protects, helps or supports him in any way and the main character 
doesn't regard him with anything remotely resembling affection. 
Rather than being an example of 'you can't trust anyone even if 
they're being nice' he's a prime example of the corruption of power 
from an early stage of LotR onward.   
 
<snip>
> Renee:
> I rather see him confess his wrongdoings and shortcomings on  
> several occasions. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Only when speaking to Sirius and the trio, never to anyone who 
> has the power to punish him.

Renee:
You mean we don't see him do so. But we don't see Shape confessing 
his wrongdoings, yet you say: "Would Dumbledore trust someone who 
had served the Dark Side and wasn't contrite?" If showing remorse 
for past wrongs is a condition to get back into DD's good graces, 
Lupin must have done so, or DD wouldn't accept him in the renewed 
Order of the Phoenix. He just didn't do it in Harry's presence.     
 
> Renee:
>  Also, there's nothing new in the message that a dehumanising 
> treatment often results in inhuman behaviour. What makes you 
> think JKR isn't writing the opposite: an example of someone who 
> is eventually able to rise above  this kind of treatment?
> 
> Pippin:
> Of course she is, that's why the books are called Harry Potter 
> and...<g>  As Harry is the hero, it might  be more fitting if he 
> helped someone else rise above, Snape maybe, rather than 
> being helped by Lupin. Lupin's path, detachment, does not 
> seem to be Harry's. 

Renee:
Harry's the hero, but he's also going through a learning process. He 
can do both: being helped, and (therefore) helping someone else. 
This makes more sense to me, a matter of input and output. And 
Lupin's detached attitude doesn't prevent him from helping Harry 
when it's necessary (Patronus), keeping him from running through the 
Veil (did you ever explain why Lupin did this if he's ESE? I've only 
kept track of the posts since I became a member) and showing up in 
King's Cross station at the end of OotP. 

Also, in the beginning, it wasn't that difficult for Harry to rise 
above his bad treatment, because in the WW he turned out to be 
popular (Snape and Draco & Co. nothwithstanding), and he spent most 
of his time there. But when he starts losing this popularity, his 
attitude deteriorates, his triumphs become tainted and he gives in 
to negative emotions. The way he is at the end of OotP, he is unfit 
to help Snape; Harry himself needs help first.       

<snip Snape; see above>

Renee
who hopes this isn't getting boring for other list members