In Defense of Snape (Against Snape in JKR's words)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 122122


>>Betsy:
>No one avoids a question like JKR. And she provides such 
entertainment as she does so. Not much insight into Snape's<

>>vmonte again: Betsy, you cut out the most significant part. I will 
quote it again though. JKR: ..."But you must not forget that Snape 
was a Death Eater. He will have seen things that
 Why do you love 
him? Why do people love Snape? I do not understand this." [EBF-04]

>>vmonte: From what I've read of Death Eaters, they do not go door to 
door selling girl scout cookies. Voldemort expects a lot from his 
employees, right? I don't think that Snape stayed back at "Bady 
Headquarters" playing with his chemistry set.

Betsy:
Sorry!  I snipped that because we all know that Snape used to be a 
Death Eater.  So I'm still not seeing any new insight into Snape's 
character, so I still characterize this as JKR smoothly side stepping 
a question.

>>vmonte:
>jkrowling_bn: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in 
life...horrible teachers like Snape are one of them! [Y-00]<
 
>>vmonte responds:
>Snape is a horrible teacher.<
 
>>Betsy:
>Not denying he's the "scary" teacher, but if JKR really wanted to 
say he was an incompetent teacher, his students would not pass their 
O.W.Ls. (And I agree with Dumbledore - learning to deal with 
the "scary" or "horrible" teacher is an important life lesson!)<
 
>>vmonte again: Sorry, I disagree. I do think however, that you can 
learn something from a horrible teacher. Did you ever read "The Art 
of War?" (It's a 2000-year-old military treatise.) One famous quote 
from it is: "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."  I 
think it would be worthwhile for the students to understand the mind 
of the enemy, but that's just my opinion. So, when JKR says that 
Snape is a sadistic and horrible teacher, the students must be 
learning something besides potions...<

Betsy:
I'd say the students are learning that the world isn't made up of 
smiling happy people.  And, much more importantly, they are learning 
Potions.  (I'm not sure what you think they're learning - but it 
sounds very grim! <eg>)

>>Betsy:
>Never argued that Snape is pleasant - and he certainly abuses his 
power at times. And in Book 4 we find out that he is a spy for 
Dumbledore, adding depth and interest to his character, just as JKR 
promised. :)

>>vmonte again: We also find out that Snape was once a Death Eater. 
So, that also is a bad sign in my opinion, especially since he 
doesn't seem to have had a moral epiphany. He is still a deeply 
horrible person, no?

Betsy:
Erm. Can I choose no? :) The entire point of my post is that Snape is 
*not* a deeply horrible person.  And Snape switched sides, going 
against his friends and possibly his family to support a side that 
seemed (according to Lupin anyway) to be loosing.  How on earth is 
that not a moral epiphany?  Must the man put daisies in his hair and 
kitten posters on his door before you accept that he's on the good 
guys' side?
 
>>vmonte:
>JKR: Yeees. You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that.
>SF: Right I shall bear that in mind. Worth watching Serverus Snape
>JKR: He's worth keeping and eye on, definitely [RAH-03]<
 
>>vmonte responds: I'm not sure that Snape is going to turn out to be 
good in the end.<
 
>>Betsy:
>I hope this quote isn't all you're basing that theory on. :) And I 
made perfectly clear that I don't think Snape is nice. But (sing 
along with me!) "nice" does not equal "good."<
 
>>vmonte again: You really think I'm reaching here? Or are you? Again 
I requote JKR:<
>..."But you must not forget that Snape was a Death Eater."
>..."there are all sorts of lessons in life...horrible teachers like 
Snape are one of them!
>"Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I 
myself had, I have to say."
>"Why do people love Snape? I do not understand this." 
>..."children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don't 
think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and 
this particular teacher does abuse his power."
>And Alan Rickman: "I think at heart Snape is basically quite an 
insecure person, he's always longing to be something else that people 
will really respect like a black magician not just a school master. 
That's why he envies the more popular and successful boys like 
Harry."<

Betsy:
The fact that I quote canon, and you quote interviews (which really 
don't give us too much new insight into the character of Snape) leads 
me to believe that I am not reaching, and that you are.  I have said, 
time and again, that Snape is a scary teacher, that he's not a 
pleasant person to be around.  Which is exactly what the above quotes 
say.  If you really think that Snape is out and out evil, you must 
show me examples *in the books* where Snape behaves in an out and out 
evil way.  I promise I will consider canon examples.
 
>>vmonte again: I had a college professor who was just like Snape 
(although a female).
<snip of example of a really bad and racist teacher>
>And everything I learned was of my own doing. I worked my backside 
off at home reading the material, and teaching myself. I would have 
learned faster if I had taken a correspondence course at home.<

Betsy:
She was a bad teacher, and a bad person.  She was not like Snape at 
all, however.  Snape has *never* judged his students by their blood 
status (the WW equivalent of racism).  If that was Snape's criteria, 
Nevilla (a pure-blood) would be sitting pretty, and Hermione or Dean 
Thomas (both muggle born) would be getting all of Snape's wrath.  And 
none of Snape's students had to teach themselves Potions.

>>Betsy:
<snip>
>But if you take Alan Rickman's words as gospel...<

>>vmonte again: Are you saying that I should take your words as 
gospel and not Mr. Rickman's and JKR's?<

Betsy:
Lord, no!  I'm saying that you should only take the books as gospel.  
Maybe think of JKR's interviews as an apocrypha, and interviews of 
actors as interesting commentary. :)

>>Betsy: Also, Snape does not envy James -- he hates him. Would you 
envy a person that stripped you in front of your classmates? And 
Harry as popular? He's known - but he spends quite a bit of time, in 
just about every book, being mocked or feared or ridiculed by the 
Hogwarts students. Why would Snape envy that?<

>>vmonte again: I agree that James and gang were wrong to attack 
Snape. As far as being mocked, feared, or ridiculed by present day 
Hogwarts students--this is all his fault in my opinion.<

Betsy:
Sorry, I was talking about *Harry* being known by his classmates and 
also being mocked, feared, or ridiculed by them.  I hope you don't 
think Harry brought it on himself. :)

>>vmonte:
>I agree. Snape is jealous of Harry's celebrity.<
 
>>Betsy:
>Huh? Where do you get that from? Please site canon.

>>vmonte again: Ok. Alan Rickman: "I think at heart Snape is 
basically quite an insecure person, he's always longing to be 
something else that people will really respect like a black magician 
not just a school master. That's why he envies the more popular and 
successful boys like Harry."<

Betsy:
Hopefully I've made clear by now that I do not consider interviews 
with actors to be canon (though they are interesting).  Please show 
me something in the books that illustrates Snape's jealousy of Harry.

>>vmonte again: We do have cannon that suggests that Snape is a 
racist. After all he did join the DEs, and he did call Lily a nasty 
name. I often find that racists are very frightened people. They fear 
what they don't understand.<

Betsy:
The canon suggest that Snape *was* a racist.  There is nothing in his 
current actions to suggest that he is a racist now.  

Betsy