[HPforGrownups] Re: In Defense of Snape (long)

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 122327

On 19 Jan 2005 at 2:29, dumbledore11214 wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> Alla
> 
> If they performed well, they performed well, because Snape was 
> absent in OWL class.
> "With Snape absent from the proceedings he found that he was much
> more relaxed than he usually was while making potions. Neville, who
> was sitting very near Harry, also looked happier than Harry had ever
> seen him during a Potions class" - OOP, p.716.
>  
> How does it make Snape a good teacher, if his only presense 
> terrorises the studentts so much that they are unable to reach their 
> potential?
> 
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> Well, there's a few points there:
> > 
> > (1) Just because Neville looks happier doesn't mean he's more able 
> > to reach his potential. A lot of kids do work better in 
> > environments where they are happy, but quite a number do not.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> The gist of my reply  to Betsy was that IF Neville gets a good grade 
> ( not a given, but I think it is hinted in the text), that would 
> mean that he indeed works better in a happy environment, which TO ME 
> would mean that Snape does not help him to reach his true potential.

Except that I don't think that is necessarily how it works.

All it would indicate is that Neville produces answers better in a 
Snape free environment. It would say nothing at all about whether 
Neville learns better in a Snape free environment.

In fact, it he does well, it would seem to indicate that both might 
apply. He may learn effectively in Snape's classes, without being 
able to produce results well. I was a bit like that with music at 
school. I learned all the theory. And fell apart during the 
practical if I had an audience.
 
> Shaun:
>  
> (2) There's a difference between learning something and being able 
> to show your understanding of it. I'm fairly convinced that Neville 
> is better able to express himself outside the presence of Snape, 
> but if he does well on his exam, that's going to come from at least 
> two places - the comfortable exam environment means he may be 
> better able to show his understading, but if he hasn't learnt in 
> Snape's classes, the ability to show his understanding would be 
> useless, because he wouldn't have anything to show. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Not necessarily at all. Harry feels that he does well on written 
> OWL, which was to describe "Polyjuice effects" right? Snape had 
> NOTHING to do with teaching them that Potion, accordingly you can 
> say that Harry learned it entirely on his own ( well with Hermione 
> and Ron's help)

Only because he didn't pay attention in class (-8

>From 'Chamber of Secrets':

"'No, it's not,' said Hermione. "All we'd need would be some
Polyjuice Potion.'

'What's that?' said Ron and Harry together.

'Snape mentioned it in class a few weeks ago -'

'D'you think we've got nothing better to do in Potions than
listen to Snape?' muttered Ron.

Harry certainly knew more about Polyjuice from learning about it 
while making it in preparation to infiltrate the Slytherin 
commonroom. But it's pretty clear that it was discussed in class, 
and he and Ron hadn't been paying attention.

It's manufacture apparently wasn't discussed in detail in class 
(otherwise they wouldn't have had to get its recipe from the 
Restricted Area) but the potion was mentioned.

The question on the OWL is apparently a fairly basic one as well - 
and it's only one question:

"Hermione's bad mood persisted for most of the weekend, though 
Harry and Ron found it quite easy to ignore as they spent most of 
Saturday and Sunday revising for Potions on Monday, the exam which 
Harry had been looking forward to least - and which he was sure 
would be the downfall of his ambitions to become an Auror. Sure 
enough, he found the written paper difficult, though he thought he 
might have got full marks on the question about Polyjuice Potion; 
he could describe its effects accurately, having taken it illegally 
in his second year."

So what we are talking about his Harry thinking he *might* have got 
full marks on *one* specific question on a difficult paper, because 
he had experience outside the Potions classroom.

There's no indication that this applies more broadly.

And there's no indication at all that Neville has any experience 
with potions outside the classroom environment at all.

Is it possible?

Sure, it's possible.

But is it likely?

I doubt it. We know that to get the information they need and the 
ingredients they need for their 'extra-curricular' activity in 
potions, Harry, Ron, and Hermione have to resort to fraud and 
theft. I doubt it's all that common, and I really doubt that 
Neville goes around doing those things at all often.

> Suppose that Snape was present at the exam. Harry KNOWS the answer, 
> but Snape's presence could have stopped him from answering the 
> question up to his true potential. He could not have used his 
> ability to show understanding at all.

Why not?

I don't see any reason to think that Snape's presence at the 
examination would have affected Harry at all. We know Polyjuice 
potion was at least mentioned in class in second year, and 
presumably examination questions are based on what students have 
studied, so Harry would have no reason to conceal his knowledge.



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia


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