In Defense of Snape (long)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 122369


SSusan:
>> But, see, that's my main point, Betsy.  If Snape is aware of 
>> their importance, then why does he not ask himself whether these 
>> two are learning?
 
Betsy:
> Why do you think Snape *doesn't* ask himself that question? 

SSSusan:
Because he's never changed his methods as far as we can ascertain.  
He's certainly never changed his presentation.  If Harry bristles 
and "shuts down" in defiance, and if Neville falls apart [more than 
with other teachers, no? Snape could ask them about that, couldn't 
he?], then I don't think he's asking himself what he could do to 
change any of that.


Betsy:
> The *only* reason Neville gets Snape's full attention is because 
> he is constantly screwing up in such fantastic ways.  I've always 
> felt that Snape's sharp tongue when it comes to Neville has to do 
> with his frustration that the boy just never gets it.  (McGonagall 
> loses her cool with Neville too.  Neville is a challenge.)  


SSSusan:
As a former teacher myself, I know about challenges.  But I believe 
you go too far when you say "the *only* reason."  How do you know 
this?  Neville does screw up -- he's klutzy in other places, too, 
and McGonagall is livid with him when he leaves the passwords out, 
yes.  But ask yourself whether Neville has ANY chance of relaxing or 
feeling confident in his abilities -- something he seems to question 
by nature -- with the way Snape treats him?  

As Alla asked:
> Don't you find it ironic, that Neville progressed in Harry's DADA
> club more during a few months than in Snape class during five 
> years.


SSSusan earlier:
>> With *these two* he goes beyond being a tough, hard-nosed, 
>> extremely-non-warm-fuzzy, high-standards teacher.  I have NO 
>> qualms with a teacher of that description.  I have problems with 
>> a teacher who singles out students to repeatedly humiliate and 
>> beat down and insult and intimidate, **especially** if they are 
>> THE two students in whose hands the future of the WW may well 
>> rest.
 
Betsy:
> Harry, like I've said, is a special case.  And I haven't seen 
> anything that suggests Harry has been failing Potions.  Neville 
> is...  He's a sweet boy, but man he's a screw up.  And Snape gets 
> frustrated.  And he gets nasty.  But I don't think Snape thinks 
> he's no longer teaching.  I think he's thinking he'll beat some 
> Potion's knowledge into Neville's fuzzy little head if it takes a 
> two-by- four. 

SSSusan:
Precisely.  Is a good teacher one who can't assess his own 
methodology to determine if beating a student with a (psychological) 
2x4 is working or not?  It's NOT WORKING with Neville.

When I say "not working" with these two, I don't mean that they're 
learning nothing.  I mean, "Are they learning ALL they are capable 
of learning?"  If a different teacher were teaching them, would they 
learn more?  That's the key, for me. 

SSSusan earlier:
>> Maybe.  For me it's not just about whether they managed to pass a 
>> big Potions test in the end, in Snape's absence, though that WILL 
>> be good news if they did.  For me it's also not just about 
>> whether they've learned to "handle" a smart ass teacher because 
>> Voldy will be much worse than that.  For me it's about whether 
>> they've learned *everything* they could possibly learn from this 
>> man (who I suspect knows a LOT), and whether they're the best 
>> prepared they can be.
 
Betsy:
> What else do you expect Snape to teach Neville and Harry?  He's 
> the Potions Master.  He's not their father, nor their mentor.  
> Neville has a family to fulfill those roles, and even Harry has a 
> few folks to choose from.  Snape's job, what he's been hired to 
> do, is to give these kids a basic knowledge of Potions and to get 
> them past their OWLs.  

SSSusan:
I've said nothing about mentoring or parenting.  That's not what I 
mean.  You think Snape's job is to give the kids a basic knowledge 
of Potions & get them to pass their OWLs.  I think that's his 
*basic* job description.  However, my argument is that with Harry -- 
and possibly Neville, too, since the prophecy could've been about 
both and DD believes in the prophecy -- that Snape, as DD's trusted 
staff member and, later, Order member, should go BEYOND that regular 
job description.  Why?  Because the stakes are so high.  If Harry is 
the ONE who has the only chance to defeat Voldy, then it would 
behoove anyone who wants to live in a Voldy-free world to help the 
kid along in every way possible, make sure that they way you've been 
teaching him is effective.

Betsy, continuing above comments:
> Which, I think, he's done.  Anything else, in regards to the 
> prophecy, would be sticking his oar into Dumbledore's business.  
> Snape has too much respect for Dumbledore to do such a thing.


SSSusan:
No.  DD asked Snape to teach Harry Occlumency.  Harry fouled that 
up, too, but Snape failed some as well, imo.


Betsy:
> I don't see how Snape's behavior has weakened Harry.  I don't even 
> see how it's weakened Neville.  Both boys did quite well in the 
> MoM battle.  I'm not sure what it is you feel Snape should do for 
> them.

SSSusan:
Nowhere did I use the word "weakened."  That's not a part of my 
argument, though it is for those who believe he was sabotaging 
Occlumency [I don't].  What I feel he should do for them is -- 
BECAUSE they're special cases, BECAUSE they're the Prophecy Boys -- 
do everything in his power to ensure that they learn as *much* 
Potions as they can, that Harry learns Occlumency, and maybe even, 
once Year 5 is here and we know VWII has begun, go above & beyond 
even more by ensuring Harry knows whatever he can tell him about how 
Voldy operates.  He *was* a DE once, after all.

Siriusly Snapey Susan, apologizing if this is disjointed or poorly 
explained -- I'm rushing out the door to a school board function.


> Betsy