[HPforGrownups] Re: Favorite Snape Scenes - He's such a lovely professor, no really.

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 122571

On 20 Jan 2005 at 22:26, Charme wrote:

> Charme:
> 
> No worries about not being able to keep it calm and rational with me, my 
> friend. :) I love Snape, however I think that canon is there for a reason - 
> I've never gone to school in Britian, so I've no idea what was acceptable 
> there, nor how long ago such discipline was commonly practiced. My next 
> question is not meant to inflame, incite or suggest any sort of argument - 
> are you suggesting that the reader should ignore that canon as something 
> explicable by tradition?

No, not exactly.

What I am saying, I suppose is that we need to be rather careful 
when saying something like (as you said), Snape "can be what some 
would perceive as physically abusive when angered" 
(incidentally, I do think you were careful in saying it) 
because whether or not something is considered physically 
abusive can to a great extent, depend on particular cultural 
views.

Hogwarts as a literary construct is, IMHO, (which I've enunciated 
at great length in an essay that can be found at: 
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/HSWW.html - it was posted 
here a while back) based on the British 'Public Schools' (or at 
least is based on such schools as presented in a large body of 
children's literature written in the 19th and 20th centuries). I 
don't think it can be fairly assessed unless people either assess 
it in terms of the real practices at such schools, or are prepared 
to explain why they are choosing to assess it on a different basis.

> In my experience here in the States, I am one of the fortunate ones  (danger 
> Will Robinson, my age is about to show) to remember during my elementary and 
> middle school years, teachers could still paddle students. I moved around a 
> lot here, and have attended schools in more the average number of states in 
> the Northeast and Midwest and all of them discontinued such "accepted" 
> practices shortly after 1978 or so. Teachers here,  private and parochial, 
> cannot touch a student in the manner Snape did mainly for legal and 
> liability reasons, and such items are as a matter of routine included in 
> most, if not all, school district employment contracts with their employees. 
> As far as your comment regarding an armed teacher as an escort for 
> detentions,  I am not sure what you mean.  Here, school districts seperate 
> the armed escort part by employing security people for such purposes, 
> thereby providing that function separate from teachers.

What I was talking about with the armed escort concept was the 
first detention we see in 'Philosopher's Stone'. As a standard, 
apparently quite acceptable, disciplinary method at Hogwarts, 
Professor McGonagall sends Harry, Hermione, Neville, and Draco into 
the Forbidden Forest in the middle of the night. This is dangerous 
enough that Hagrid is carrying a crossbow.

How many schools are there around where a detention involves 11 
year olds having to do something so dangerous, the teacher has to 
carry a weapon?

Too often, in my view, people try to ascribe modern educational 
ideas and modern educational practices to Hogwarts. Leaving aside 
whether or not these are good or bad practices (in my view, they 
are a mixture - some are good, some are not), most of them do not 
seem to be culturally relevant to Hogwarts. Judging Snape on the 
basis of modern pedagogy seems odd to me because we're not seeing a 
modern pedagogical context.

It jars to me, to an extent, because I attended a very traditional 
school that (like I believe is the case with Hogwarts) was founded 
on the traditions of the British Public schools. I'm also doing an 
Education degree at the moment, where I'm exposed to lots of the 
modern ideas, and modern practices. I think both have validity - 
but it's difficult to compare one in light of the other. And yet, 
it seems to happen a lot when discussing Hogwarts.

People who had very 'modern' educational experiences, sometimes 
seem to condemn Hogwarts (or particular practices, or particular 
teachers) just because they do not fit into the way experience 
tells them schools should be.

Personally, while I think it's perfectly valid to consider that 
Hogwarts and particular practices, and particular teachers, has 
real faults, those faults should be seen in the context of the 
school as presented, not the context of the school as we would like 
it to be.
 
> Still, for me it goes back to the main concept of Snape's ability to control 
> his anger and it does still make me wonder what he might have done in the 
> past (or perhaps will do in the future) as a result of his struggle to 
> control it. It makes me go back to Snape's diatribe with Harry during one of 
> his Occulmency lessons: paraphased, he refers to those who wear or cannot 
> control their emotions openly being easy prey for LV. Makes me think that 
> scene means more than meets the eye. :)

Yes, and see - to me, Snape's ability to control his anger is 
disturbing. I don't see any real inherent problem with Snape 
grabbing Harry hard enough to bruise his arm, or even with him 
pushing Harry over. In the context of the type of school, Hogwarts 
is presented as being, those things don't strike me as major 
problems. But Snape being unable to control himself *does*. Because 
while that happened a lot in the past at such schools, it was never 
really considered normal or acceptable there (well, maybe a long 
time ago).

Another example - Umbridge's quill. Personally, in the context of 
the type of school, Hogwarts is presented as being, the quill 
doesn't strike me as a majorly wrong punishment. What makes it 
wrong, what makes it evil, is that Umbridge uses it not to punish, 
but to torture. The quill itself - a punishment involving 
significant pain - well, that's nothing unusual in that cultural 
context (even though Hogwarts seems to have largely abandoned such 
methods) - but it's not being used as a punishment on Harry - at 
least not for any real and honest offence. 



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia


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