Imperius Resistance and Occlumency, was Harry's anger (was Re: Draco's anger.)

[Amanda Geist]

No: HPFGUIDX 122904


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant9998" 
<eggplant9998 at y...> wrote:
> 
> First I want to thank Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> for an intelligent
> well written post; although I disagreed with almost every line I
> thoroughly enjoyed reading it and responding to it.

(blushes) Thanks.

Eggplant speaking for Harry:

> Yea it's very boring walking down that same dumb corridor, I'd like
> something interesting to happen to break the monotony. And what's 
all
> this baloney about Occlumency? Dumbledore tells me it's all so very
> very super duper ultra important to learn this crap, but he won't 
give
> me one reason why it's so important.

I am away from my books at the moment, and cannot give an exact 
quote, but I think what Phineas Nigellus tells Harry is quite apropos 
to Eggplant's interpretation of Harry's attitude. Phineas points out 
that Dumbledore may well not share every reason for every decision 
with Harry. And I will add that he has no reason to. It is not 
incumbent upon Dumbledore to obtain Harry's approval, or to ensure 
Harry's understanding. It is incumbent upon Dumbledore, as a general 
in this struggle, to issue clear direction. And he has done so. 

This reminds me of my children. If I tell my daughter to do X, many 
times she will not do X. Instead, she will do something else that she 
thinks will acccomplish the *reason* I wanted her to do X, without 
her having to do X at all. Problem is, her understanding is limited 
and she is often wrong about what my reasons were. 

Understand: I often do provide her my reasons. But I can't always. I 
may not have had time to explain, or it may have been an emergency, 
etc. My point is: I am her parent. I *must* be able to trust her to 
do as I say when it comes down to the point, or bad things can result 
(and they have). And Dumbledore, as an authority figure, *must* be 
able to trust Harry to do his bidding even if the reasons don't seem 
good to Harry's more limited understanding.

Basically, I totally understand Harry's line of reasoning, but still 
find it totally wrong.

> Well, Dumbledore has been wrong
> before, and besides, he hasn't talked to me or even looked at me for
> months. I once thought he liked me a little.

Aww, izzums neglected? This is *such* a selfish, childish line of 
thinking. See above. Harry would do well to remember that he does not 
know everything.

> I'll take that bet because the world's greatest expert on Harry
> Potter's mind strongly disagrees with you, Harry potter himself.

I will not concede this point, because Harry Potter himself was 
unable to detect Voldemort's machinations in his dream visions. 
People are not always the best judges of their own fitness, sanity, 
or mental abilities, because they are of necessity looking through 
the filter they purport to be judging objectively. Objectivity is 
almost impossible--even *if* Harry had conscious access to the levels 
that Voldemort was manipulating (which he does not).

> It's Dumbledore who refuses to so much as look at Harry for month
> after month and doesn't provide the slightest clue of a reason for 
the
> snub. Are you really surprised Harry thinks Dumbledore doesn't give 
a
 damn about him?   

No, not surprised. But I am surprised that Harry is immature enough 
to put things in such a personal, childish, Harry-centric frame when 
he should clearly understand that Dumbledore and most of the adults 
he is in contact with are involved in a huge struggle for the safety 
of the wizarding world. He makes himself an obstruction, rather than 
trying to honestly understand and rise to the challenge.

> Lying to an enemy is always a good policy. It is possible, even
> probable that Snape is indeed an enemy, at the very least he is an
> unfriendly bastard.

Aw. Poor baby. I think Harry limited himself in his working with 
Snape, because of his persistence in thinking there is some bizarre 
power struggle happening. Snape is a grown man with better things to 
do; he throws the occasional snide comment, but if he wanted to harm 
Harry, Harry would be significantly harmed already. That Harry allows 
himself to consider Snape any kind of enemy probably accounted for 
his forgetting that he was in the Order, which could have saved 
Sirius. It also explains his baffling double-think, when Harry 
realized he could not speak freely in front of Umbridge when trying 
to talk to Snape, but then blamed Snape when he showed no sign in 
front of Umbridge for understanding.

> Probably true and not an unreasonable wish for Harry to have, after
> all, such a channel had already saved Ron's father's life. 

If I am a mother with toddlers, and I find a second-story window 
open, and from that window see and avert a potential catastrophe--I 
will *still* shut the window because it is a danger to my children. 
If I miss another fluke catastrophe-aversion? Too bad. The greater 
good maintains.

> > Snape's reaction, however, is not personal in the slightest. 
> 
> What?! 

He fixes the broken jar, straightens some things on his desk to allow 
himself time to regain his composure, and then says "Let's try 
again." If your reading of the passage shows some emotional revenge-
bent response I missed, please provide it.
 
> Years ago Dumbledore testified in open court before hundreds of 
people
> that Snape spied on Voldemort for him, it's very hard to understand
> how it could all be a big surprise to the Dark Lord now at this late
> date. 

We do not know the particulars of Snape's arrangement; it is still in 
fact only speculation (albeit strongly supported) that Snape is 
spying. But as a "superb Occlumens," Snape has the skill to lie to 
Voldemort, and as a master of Hogwarts, Snape has a position 
Voldemort would want to take advantage of--and so, I maintain that 
even if Voldemort knows Snape is a traitor, he is keeping that 
knowledge to himself and Snape is still spying, having given 
Voldemort a reason that appeared to be accepted.

If, however, Voldemort *was* behind the curiosity that took Harry to 
the Pensieve, as he was behind the corridor-curiosity, as I said in 
an earlier post, Snape is likely toast.

> Obviously Snape needed to take precautions; but he must have been
> living in some dream world because he thought he didn't need to hide
> the Pensive from Harry. The jackass! 

He thought he didn't need to hide it because they are on the same 
side and working for the same goal. Because he believes that 
Dumbledore trusts Harry; and because he has certain expectations of 
propriety. I don't hide my purse at work, either; I don't think it's 
unreasonable to expect my office-mate not to rifle it.

> If that was true then I don't understand why JKR lets Harry believe
> up to and including the very last page of the book that Snape's
> Occlumency lessons made him weaker not stronger. 

Harry is not necessarily the best judge of Harry's state of mind, as 
most of the last section of OoP show. And the easiest answer is: 
because it's needed for the plot. LIke Dumbledore not explaining 
everything to Harry--JKR has no obligation to explain everything to 
us. And our understanding is limited and so the conclusions we reach 
can seem good to us, but still be wrong. Will we be Harry, absolutely 
certain that we're right and demanding an accounting of JKR or the 
hell with her? Or will we be mature and accept that our understanding 
may be limited?

~Amanda