SV: [HPforGrownups] Re: More Snape Defense, regarding Snape's childhood. (Long)

[trekkie]

No: HPFGUIDX 122980



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Emne: [HPforGrownups] Re: More Snape Defense, regarding Snape's childhood. (Long)
Dato: 25-01-2005 01:18:59

> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "TrekkieGrrrl" <trekkie at s...> 
> wrote:
> > Trekkiegrrl:
> > > Now, I haven't been am member of this group for long, but it
> > amazes me that noone has mentioned more about Snape's childhood.
> > 
> > Valky:
> > ROFL! That because you haven't been a member long! > 
> 
> > TrekkieGrrrl again:
> > OK so some things have been answered before. Sorry. Also sorry 
> that I find Yahoo groups a pest to search in. I wasn't aware that it 
> was a laughing matter to ask for something just because it has been 
> discussed before.
> >

Trekkie:
OK sorry for being prickly. That's the problems with written communications: They're sometimes misinterpretated :o)

> 
> 
> Valky:
> There's no need to be sorry, it's not called Yahoomort for 
> nothing. ;D 
> My laughter wasn't meant to come across as rude, really. I was just 
> trying to let you know that you are in good company here, there are 
> many Snape admirers at HPFGU, and each plenty as passionate as the 
> next one. I guess my message didn't come across well.

Good. I did get you wrong. Glad we got it figured out :o)
>  
> > Valky then:
> > And he does have a sadistic streak, actually IMHO that is the very
> > thing that is the problem here. In the shrieking shack for example,
> > the temptation is too strong for him, he could take the whole party
> > up to the castle and have the whole ting promptly sorted, the
> > children safe, justice served... but he craves his bitter revenge 
> on Sirius and it comes first.
> > 
> > Just put Dumbledore in Snape's place in that Chapter and you will
> > see how someone *without* a sadistic streak would handle the
> > situation. See how Snape pales in the light of logical Dumbledore
> > steps...?
> > 
> > TrekkieGrrrl again:
> > I do not agree fully that Snape has the power to change. I agree - 
> of course - that he has a right to be loved and respected, but I 
> don't think he's AWARE of why people doesn't like him.
> > 
> > And sorry but I just don't LIKE Dumbledore all that much. I'm not 
> sure he hasn't got a sadistic streak too, depending of course of how 
> you define that.
> > 
> 
> Valky again:
> Just a question for question's sake. If Snape is such a hopeless 
> case in your opinion, then what exactly *is* good about him. I mean 
> if you don't see him as intelligent and independently cognisant.... 
> how can you see him as intelligent and independently cognisant?

Trekkie:
Oh Snape is not a hopeless case as such. He does a good job IMO AS Snape. just don't expect him to turn into a cuddly fuzzball *L*

Snape is "good" because he's on the right side against Lord Voldie. And yes I believe is truly IS. No ese!Snape here.
> 
>  
> 
> > > Trekkiegrrl:
> > > Abused children show many "abnormal" patterns in their behaviour.
> > and though some may grow up and act as "normal" responsible adults
> > later on, some just can't. They do not have the basis for that. And
> > Snape was one of the latter.
> > >
> > 
> > Valky:
> > That, I am afraid, is just your basic narrow minded cop out. 
> Nothing personal Trekkiegrrl.
> > 
> > TrekkieGrrrl again:
> > Personal or not I find that a strange accusation. I DO know about 
> abused children FYI.
> > 
> 
> Valky:
> It would be a strange accusation, if it was an accusation. 
> I was directing the point at the point. 
> Again, if Snape is not able to think for himself, then how does he 
> think for himself?
> I know about abused children too, believe it or not. There are boys 
> who, as you say "can't" act as normal responsible adults, but normal 
> is a farce anyway, if they choose to accept love and respect when it 
> is given to them they *do* become better for it, better than normal.

Trekkie:
Again, I got your intentions wrong I gues. Sorry for snapping.

And "damaged" children can be able to "think for themselves" in some occasions yet be totally unable to do it in others. Again, given the circumstances - and MY view of Snape and his assumed background, I think he's doing a good job.

> 
> > > Trekkiegrrl:
> > > I doubt Snape had many friends in Slytherin too. Noone
> > > seems to have in any way come to his defenses when the Marauders
> > were picking on him at the "upside-down" episode. 
> > >
> > 
> > Valky:
> > I think its safe to assume that at least some of these children 
> were afraid of Snape and James. Snape because he was a "scary 
> dangerous weird boy" and James because he was dangerous to the 
> dangerous. You must remember when reading the scene that Lily Evans 
> was an exceptionally brave girl and bravery is not a key Slytherin 
> trait while self-preservation IS.
> > 
> > TrekkieGrrrl again:
> > I'm sure there were many who were afraid of Child!Snape - and many 
> of Child!James. But likely not the same children.
> >
> 
> Valky:
> My point was in answer to your question why the Slytherins didn't 
> come to his rescue. yes Kids were afraid of Snape and James, they 
> were both fearfully powerful for a couple of 15 year olds. Lily came 
> to Snapes defense because she was a brave girl. And among the 
> Slytherins that weren't afraid quite probably was a bunch of self 
> interested kids who weren't going to put themselves in harms way for 
> anyone. 

Trekkie:
You're right that the slytherins wouldn't help Snape. Not as much out of fear for HIM as out of "that's none of my business" thinking. I believe he was generally considered a "nerd" both among Slytherins and the rest. But not necessarily feared.

> 
> Trekkigrrl also said: 
> >And int IS canon that it wasn't the first time they'd chosen Snape 
> as their favourite victim. Some kids are natural victims, often kids 
> from abusive households. I guess wizards can be alcoholics too, or 
> be addicted to illegal potions and whatnot. And Snape's home might 
> very well have been like that. it DOES fit his behavioral pattern 
> as the "victim"
> 
> Valky:
> I just wanted to isolate this for a moment and comment. I agree that 
> Snape does fit the victim pattern of a child from a household with 
> someone akin to a drug abuser. But his reaction to Lily suggests 
> that young Snape was also in a pattern of refuting the worth of 
> genuine kindness towards him, he takes this attitude with Dumbledore 
> too. Later in your post you say we can't really blame Snape for 
> jumping at the opportunity being a DE gave him to have power. Which 
> is true, especially since Snape as an adult is able to see it in 
> hindsight as some kind of a mistake. 
> The only thing is none of that negates Sevvies preoccupation with 
> weilding power and having a sense of supremacy and personal glory, 
> he conciously chooses those things and always has. The difference 
> between him and James/Dumbledore/Lupin as adults is that they 
> embraced humility, conciously. Even Sirius had a go at it. Snape is 
> afraid of humility.
> (Just as an aside: That is why I think Oscar!Winner Snape is just a 
> bad joke. I know you haven't cited OW!Snape here trekkiegrrl so its 
> just an offhanded comment in general.)

Trekkie:
I think his rejection of Lily's help was the general defense pattern popping up. The "don't let anyone get close enough - emotionally - to hurt you later. And given his upbringing, he DID have (and possibly has still) prejudices agaist mudbloods.
And it's not like perfectly nice and ordinary people here aren't racists too. Lots of people knows wen to BEHAVE Politically Correct, but it is often only skin deep.

I don't think Snape is afraid of humility. I am not sure he understands that concept. He knows humiliation and may confuse those two terms. And he DOES See a chance to get even. Yes he behaves "childish" in his wish for revenge over Sirius, I have never claimed him to be perfect :o) But he DID come to realize that his DE choice was wrong - perhaps making that realization was his first truly FREE choice. 

> 
>  
> >  Trekkiegrrl:
> > > And then comes this "Führer" in the shape of Voldemort and all of
> > a sudden the underdog gets a chance to get POWER!
> > >
> > > WHO can't REALLY blame Snape for grasping that?
> > >
> > 
> > Valky:
> > I agree, but Snapes past does not colour my veiw of his present. 
> All in all he *is* still what he is now, and for as much as any 
> reason it is by choice.
> > 
> > TrekkieGrrrl again:
> > And this is where we differ. I don't think he HAS this choice. He 
> has never HAD much of a choice as I see it.
> >
> 
> Valky:
> Yes that is definitely where we differ. Just again, if Snape *never 
> had* choice then what was he exercising when he defected from the 
> DE's? Or do you believe he is an ESE DE and always will be?

Trekkie: 
¨No, I believe that may be his first sign of "free will" when he defected. nAnd that may be whay Dumbledore trusts him: When he finally HAD a choice, he made the RIGHT one. 
> 
>  
> >  Trekkiegrrl:
> > > No, he's not an ideal teacher after our standards. But again,
> > remember how old fashoined the Wizarding World is. Go back 75 years
> > and he would have been a MILD teacher.
> > 
> > Valky:
> > A fair enough statement, and I am not so passionate, really, about
> > it all. I prefer Harry to Snape and thats that.
> > 
> > TrekkieGrrrl again:
> > Oh I like Harry too, though I think he did an unforgivable thing 
> by putting his nose into Snape's Pensieve. It is Harry's everpresent 
> curiosity that makes him disregard the necessety of the Occlumency 
> lessons and it's the same curiosity that makes him peep in the 
> Pensieve. It just doesn't make it right.
> > 
> > I won't say I prefer Snape to Harry. I like both of them for very 
> different reasons. But if I have to choose, I would save Snape ;o)
> > 
> 
> Valky:
> I don't think *anything* is entirely unforgivable. And I am sure 
> that sometime in a future book Lily will make this point for us.

Trekkie:
OK, so "unforgivable" was a wrong choice of wording :o)
I do sincerely think that Harry did a seriously wrong violation of Snape. And as it has been pointed out in other threads, he could have endangered the whole Order by doing it.

~TrekkieGrrrl