Harry's bit of Voldy (apologies to Snow)

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 123382


Dungrollin stands at the high tide mark, and realigns the same 
canon, sighting at the little boat captained by Snow all alone. Snow 
appears to have been dodging. Dung has no boat of her own, though 
there are, and have been for months, plans for one on a roll of 
parchment under her arm. Dung feels dreadfully guilty for a moment, 
because it's such a handsome little boat.  Then thinks, "Oh, what 
the hell, I'll probably miss again, anyway."  


Dungrollin previously:
There are hints that Voldy did torture and kill Bertha and *didn't*
possess Wormtail to do it –
<Snow snipped some examples of canon that she's not replying to>
GoF, chapter 33: The Death Eaters. Voldy says:
"... but the means I used to break the Memory Charm upon her were
powerful, and when I had extracted all useful information from her,
her mind and body were both damaged beyond repair. She had now
served her purpose. I could not possess her. I disposed of her
[...] Wormtail's body, of course, was ill-adapted for possession, as
all assumed him dead, and would attract far too much attention if
seen."

Snow:
I believe Voldemort is talking future tense when he says that
Wormtail's body was ill adept for possession because he explains in
what context his body is ill adapted; "as all assumed him dead, and
would attract far too much attention if seen." It is the *if seen*
part of the statement that allows me to believe that Wormtail's body
was not entirely ill adept, it was only useful to Voldemort where no
one could see Wormtail; like in the woods of Albania torturing
Bertha.

Dungrollin, previously:
Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that Voldy didn't possess
Wormtail briefly in order to torture and kill Bertha, but Voldy also
says:
"Wormtail was able to follow the instructions I gave him, which
would return me to a rudimentary, weak body of my own, a body I
would be able to inhabit while awaiting the essential ingredients
for true rebirth [...] a potion concocted from unicorn blood, and
the snake venom Nagini provided ... I was soon returned to an almost
human form, and strong enough to travel."
Which suggests that he became Voldy!baby in Albania before making
his way back to England. (It also suggests, by the way, that Nagini
was in Albania with him). And we know for sure that as Voldy!baby
he can cast an AK, because he kills Frank Bryce. So it's quite
possible that it was Voldy!baby, rather than Wormtail who tortured
and killed Bertha.

Snow:
Aha
except Voldemort speaks of this event happening after his
realization that he could not possess Bertha. Therefore I conclude
that the concoction made to turn Vapormort into Babymort happened
after the torture of Bertha, which still allows for the scenario that
Voldemort had possessed Wormtail for the interrogation of Bertha.
Voldemort was using Wormtail's abilities under this possession (not
his own) to torture Bertha, which would not have therefore been scar
seeringly eventful for Harry.

Dungrollin:
Yep, that's entirely possible, though it's not the only possible 
interpretation.  I was trying to show that Voldy says "*I* tortured 
and killed Bertha Jorkins," and Crouch Jnr (under Veritaserum) 
says "*my master* tortured and killed Bertha Jorkins"; and that, 
since Vapour!Mort became Voldy!Baby in Albania, it's perfectly 
possible that it was as Voldy!Baby that he tortured and killed 
Bertha, rather than by possessing Wormtail.

The fact that he mentions becoming Voldy!Baby and not possessing 
Wormtail *after* he talks about torturing and killing Bertha doesn't 
necessarily mean that it happened in that order.  I admit that it's  
the most obvious reading, though.



Dungrollin previously:

And finally, GoF, chapter 35: Veritaserum,
"It was very quick. My father was placed under the Imperius curse
by my master. My master forced him to go about his business as
usual..."

It could be argued that Barty Crouch is saying "my master" when what
he means is "my master ordered Wormtail to...", except that after
that he changes to:

"You needed Alastor Moody," said Dumbledore. His blue eyes were
blazing, though his voice remained calm.
[Crouch replies] "Wormtail and I did it."

So I see no reason to disbelieve Barty Crouch's implication that
Voldy!baby was using magic (particularly as he was under Veritaserum
at the time), that he used the Imperius curse on Crouch senior; but
Harry didn't feel his scar hurt when it happened.

Snow:

Two separate circumstances. The first quote applies to Crouch Sr.,
which could have been Voldemort possessing Wormtail at the time,
whereas the second quote is about putting Moody under the Imperius,
which could have been Wormtail without his possession buddy. It is
rather like the instances with Quirrel and Quirrelmort, sometimes he
feels like a nut sometimes he don't. In other words, Vapormort wasn't
always possessing Quirrel either.

Dungrollin:

I know, that's what I meant, sorry for not being very clear... I was 
trying to anticipate the argument that Crouch Jnr, being a creep, 
would have given Voldy credit for things that Wormtail did under 
orders, but after all the "my master did this" and "my master did 
that" he doesn't try to give credit to Voldy for capturing Moody, he 
says "Wormtail and I did it."

So when Crouch says "My father was placed under the Imperius curse 
*by my master*", I don't see any reason to think that it was anybody 
other than Voldy!baby holding the wand. Wormtail and Voldy arrive at 
the Crouch house after the Quidditch World Cup and before Moody is 
captured, and there is no mention of Harry's scar hurting at this 
time.



Dungrollin, previously:
If Voldy now has Harry's powers that should include the power
that "the Dark Lord knows not", which would either have killed him
because it's incompatible with general Voldyness, or would mean he 
shouldn't have had any difficulties in possessing Harry in the MoM.

Snow:
As I see it Voldy is only accessing *his old powers* through Harry so
he is not actually sharing all of the powers that Harry possesses. On
the other hand Harry does, through this connection, have some use of
the only power that Voldemort himself actually retained and that is
the possession factor. I have to say some use of it because Harry did
not actually possess the snake in the MOM but did view from inside
the possession. Like I had said in one of the Satellite!Harry posts,
this was the time in which Voldemort became aware of Harry's
presence. It was the fact that Harry was now accessing a power that
was not bequeathed to Harry that allowed Voldemort to sense Harry's
presence.

Dungrollin:

I was responding to Finwitch's claim that Voldy gained Harry's 
powers after using his blood in the graveyard.  (Déjà vu strikes 
again, see message 117282...)

Replying to Snow: Though I don't see why it's necessary for Harry to 
be able to use Voldy's powers of possession for this episode.  It 
seems to me to be just the same as the dreams he has from 
Voldemort's point of view, except that in this one Voldy's point of 
view was from the snake that he was possessing, so that is what 
Harry sees.

A more general problem with Satellite!Harry (I think) is that we 
have to believe that Voldy, having spent years as formless gas, 
unable to do magic, finally gets a body in which he can use a wand, 
and only casts three spells over a period of 10 months, during GoF. 
Killing Frank Bryce, Imperioing Crouch Snr, and Crucioing Wormtail 
(and that Harry only felt his scar hurt for two of those occasions).

Such a handsome little boat... Dungrollin fires the canon and waits 
to see whether it will hit, miss or be deflected in mid-air by 
Snow's canon...