[HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA

[heather the buzzard]

No: HPFGUIDX 132033

davenclaw wrote:

>I think the reason that I disagree with what you are saying can be 
>summarized with one question: How did Harry ever get the opportunity 
>to use the time-turner to summon the Patronus to drive away the 
>dementors?  They were about to kill him.  How did he survive in 
>order to be able to save himself?  There were a series of events 
>which were altered when he went back in time.  We never see them, 
>and no one knows about them.  
>
>I think you are confusing the fact that there is no memory of the 
>original events with the idea that there never was a different set 
>of events.  That just cannot be the case.  Harry couldn't save 
>himself until he was given the opportunity to do so.  
>  
>
heather:
Actually, I'm not confusing anything.  I understand fully what you're
saying.  Trust me, I've read and seen a whoooole lot of sci-fi and
philosophical analyses of the intricacies and paradoxes of time-travel.
I'm not sure if you're not understanding what I'm saying, or if I'm not
stating it well, or if you're just choosing not to accept it.

davenclaw:

>People have been saying that there is one time with two Harrys.  But 
>until the moment in time occurred when they used the time-turner, 
>there WAS NO TIME-TRAVELING HARRY in existence.  So how did Harry 
>survive the Dementors?
>  
>

heather:

It gets confusing when talking about time.  You say "until the moment in
time" when he used the time-turner, there was no time-turning Harry
*yet*.  This is presuming a particular view of the flow of time.  One
that is person-centered, in a manner of speaking, and one that is
changeable.  One that is only forward-looking, that starts in the past
and heaves its way forward through time -- the 'future' does not happen
until time 'gets there'.

There is another way of looking at it.  That the events of history are
already laid out, almost in a physical sense, and that what we
*perceive* as 'time' is merely our one-way travel along history.  As
I've said, you have to step outside of time and look at it from a
perspective where you can see past, present, and future as One, as a
solid entity, and not as a moving, growing thread.

Like a book.  The whole book exists, and you read it front to back.  The
words at the end of the book are already there, even if you haven't read
them yet.  They don't 'exist' yet in your mind.  Your knowledge of the
book grows (through time heh) as you start at the beginning and work
your way through.

Similarly, you can theorize a way that time works, in that it is already
laid out, but we are ignorant of the future until we get there in our
own travels, 'reading' history as it were.

When we read a book, the words are not being spontaneously created as we
read them.  They were already there, waiting for us to encounter them.

Similary, moments in time could be seen as not spontaneously arising,
but as already existing, waiting for us.

This of course, brings up the whole question of free will,
predestination, fate, etc.  I hold that they are all still quite valid.
H&H choose to use the timeturner, therefore in what THEY perceive as the
past they have already done it.  They are now 'locked in' to a
predestination, but it is a predestination that they chose.  From the
outside perspective, where there is no 'back and forth' to time, they
were going to choose to do it, so the effect of it was always there.
There is no 'future' and 'past' when you are outside time, it is all in
front of you.  So *the effect can precede the cause*.

This makes no logical sense to us, we think "NO!  There MUST have been a
'first time'".  But this is only because we exist within the forward
motion of time and are unable to comprehend the 'wholeness' of it.

It definitely is a paradox, no question about it.  But just because it's
hard to fathom doesn't mean there MUST have been a 'first time'.  It's
entirely possible that time just DOES NOT WORK that way.  Time is a
mess, we can't begin to understand it.  I mean, even the time-clock in
the DoM... the egg/chick was moving backwards in its own time, while it
was still going forwards in 'regular' time!

There's of course the age-old classic paradox of being 'your own
grandfather' thanks to time-travel.  Go back in time, meet your
grandmother, impregnate her, and your dad (or mom) is born.

Impossible, right?  Sure, if the view of time you are espousing is
true.  If you were not your own grandfather the 'first time', then when
you boogie down with nana you're 'changing' history, and thus 'you' will
be a different person, and the 'you' that existed to go back in time
will never have existed, therefore will have never gone back, therefore
will have never created the alter-you in the first place.. etc etc etc.

The only way in which the scenario is possible, is if the time-travel is
a 'closed loop'.  You already were your own grandfather because you had
already travelled back in time to create yourself.  There is no initial
impetus, the loop was always there.  This too is paradoxical and seems
impossible.  But really, dimensions and quantum physics etc being what
they are, it's just as possible as any other theory!

This 'closed-loop' scenario, by which you COULD be your own ancestor, is
the only way to view JKR's potterverse.  It is not the ONLY way to view
time travel, your view is of course a legitimate one and often used for
great sci-fi; but this is the only way in which *this* fictional
universe works.

I really suggest you read the Hitchhiker's Guide.  :)  Oh, and the
sequel, "Mostly Harmless".  That has the Guide Mark 2, whose sole
function is to 'reverse-engineer' events through time.  You want
something to happen?  It will make it happen because it exists
'backwards' in time, and thus pre-causes events so that what you wanted
will have already always happened in the first place.  If you think H&H
and the Time-Turner make your head hurt, you haven't experienced
anything yet...

heather the buzzard
(I think I've said all I can say on this... if you're not convinced that
this is the way to view the potterverse, even if you don't fully
understand it, then there's nothing more I can say.  Just read more
sci-fi.  I'm exhausted!)