Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview)

[Milz]

No: HPFGUIDX 134600

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "templar1112002"
<templar1112002 at y...> wrote:
<Big Snip>
> 
> **Marcela now:  If I may say so, I believe that this topic is a bit 
> ridiculous, but heck, this is HPFGUs, :D
> 
> This is the scene with Trelawney and Harry:
> 
> "...'Dumbledore did me the courtesy of calling upon me in my room.  
> He questioned me... I must confess that, at first, I thought he 
> seemed ill-disposed toward Divination...and I remember I was 
> starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day...but 
> then...' <snip of Harry's thoughts threading this with the Prophecy>
> '...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!'
> 'What?'
> 'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and 
> there was a rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was 
> waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm 
> afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended 
> eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore -you see, he himself 
> was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips!  
> Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to 
> give me a job, and I could not help thinking, Harry, that it was 
> because he appreciated the stark contrast between my own unassuming 
> manners and quiet talent, compared to the pushing, thrusting young 
> man who was prepared to listen at keyholes -Harry, dear?' ..." HBP 
> pages 544/5 Schol.ed.h/c.
> 
> (I liked the pun 'pick up tips!', :D)
> 
> If we are to believe that Trelawney was suffering from PTSD, then 
> she should have been experiencing such for about sixteen years now, 
> ever since she'd made the first prophecy, or at least since when its 
> first part took place: when the Potters got killed and the AK failed 
> on Harry.

Not necessarily. PTSD can manifest in different ways for different
people. For example, a person who had a traumatic experience as a
child might not remember the specific incident until something in
their life "brings" that memory back. That something can be emotional
stress or physical stress.
 
> But the little canon we have of Sybill tells us that she started 
> smelling like sherry in OoTP, which is when her position at Hogwarts 
> got threatened.
> 

True, but it also correspond, Sirius Black, alleged the Death Eater
who betrayer of the Potters, escaping from Azakban and evading capture
throughout GoF and OoP. Again, this could and the job stress could be
the triggers for Trelawney, hence the drinking.

> To make this post a bit more practical and in an attempt to add to 
> the pool of ideas for brainstorming, I'd say that we shouldn't focus 
> on Trelawney's behaviour, which as I said above, is a bit irrelevant 
> to the story, but that we should concentrate on Jo's designs for 
> her: it's evident to me that Sybill is a "plot device". 
> Her 'cracking' had to be there in order for Harry to learn about 
> the 'eavesdropper'.  Harry had to force Dumbledore to explain his 
> reasons for trusting Snape.  Dumbledore didn't have a way out now 
> that Harry had learned of the identity of the eavesdropper. 

Oh almost every character in the series are plot-devices and Rowling
has used them rather well. 

But my point in sharing my thoughts were due the little light bulb
that went off in my head after reading Rowling's MacBeth Witches'
prophecy-as-catalyst on her website. (See below for the MacB Witches
and culpability). Nothing more/nothing less (and it's also a change
from all the Snape-based messages too---which can get very boring,
very fast, imo.) This is all speculation on my part, not "fact". :)

> I'm 
> afraid that many of us are very reluctant (delusional?) to accept 
> the simple answer to Dumbledore's trust on Snape's loyalty to 
> him/Order -I myself made a little Snape-is-loyal-to-Dumbledore 
> theory, :).  Jo gave this answer to Harry in HBP: Dumbledore 
> believed that Snape had repented from telling the prophecy to 
> Voldemort/getting the Potters killed.  That was good enough for him, 
> even knowing that Snape was very good with Occlumency.  As canon and 
> interviews say it, Dumbledore's greatest weakness was to "believe 
> the best in people", and that despite his brilliant genius he'd made 
> huge mistakes.
> 
Jury's still out for Snape in my opinion. So, I don't care to comment
or to base my arguments on Snape's being guilty or innocent---because
Rowling left enough leeway for her to make a convincing argument for
Snape's innocence or his guilt. (BTW, how did Trelawney's drinking
turn into Snape: he seems to infiltrate everything?) 

<snip Trelawney-Voldie>.  

> BTW, I am going to read Macbeth again -did so about twenty years 
> ago, :).  But, IIRC, the three witches also delivered "two 
> prophecies/visions", and it was Macbeth's doings that made them 
> true.  Also, I don't think that the witches showed up after the 
> second vision, but I might be wrong.  I wonder about this because 
> perhaps Trelawney might not show up anymore in the story.
> 
> Marcela

The witches show up 3 times in the play: 1.in the beginning of the
play (no prophecy but they set the tone of the play),2. in the moor to
tell MacB that he will eventually become King and tell Banquio that
while he won't become king his descendants will, 3. in their cave
where MacB gets them to tell him more of their prophecy: beware
MacDuff, he can only be killed by a man not born of a woman, and that
everything will be okay until Birnam Wood comes to Dunsinane Castle.

The question about the Witches is how much culpability they had in the
events that followed their prophecy. Two arguments can be made (both
have their points, btw) 1. The witches were merely passing on
information. What MacBeth did with that info was out of their hands.
Therefore, they cannot not be culpable. 2. The witches could foretell
the future so in giving MacB that info, they knew he would
murder---which makes them culpable because they gave him the "tools"
so to speak. 

Milz