[HPforGrownups] Re: I still dont like Fleur

[Ladi lyndi]

No: HPFGUIDX 135010

Shannon wrote:
 
No, it's not ok. And no one has a greater duty to be nice than anyone 
else. But Fleur's greatest sin is being tactless and a little arrogant. 
As far as we can see, she doesn't make personal judgements against 
anyone in the family, the way they have all done with her. Hermione and 
Ginny at least, know there is more to Fleur, or they should after the 
Tri-Wizard tournament. They don't even have nasty nicknames for Malfoy, 
someone they have very personal, specific reasons for hating.


Lynn:
 
Well, I think Fleur is more than just a little arrogant but she  is much more than tactless as well.  Fleur is rude and disrespectful and, by not trying to accept the family as they are, making her personal judgment that they aren't good enough.  Fleur does make personal judgements.  By treating Ginny as a 3 year old rather than the young lady she is, Fleur is pronouncing Ginny not worthy of an attempt to get to know who Ginny really is.  As I said, I doubt Fleur treats her own sister in such a condescending manner and Ginny is older.  Since Fleur automatically had treated Harry that way at the beginning of GOF, we learn that it isn't necessarily something Ginny's done for Fleur to treat her this way.   By her criticisms she's making personal judgements that there are things inferior about the family, such as Molly's taste in music.  She makes a personal judgement about Ron and Tonks when she talks about them being clumsy.  
 
Why should Ginny and Hermione know more about Fleur after the Triwizard Tournament?  Fleur looked down her nose on anyone younger than her.  The only reason she doesn't treat Harry badly anymore is because he saved her sister when Fleur wasn't able to do it herself.  When one treats people badly, it tends to color how they are thought of by others. 
 
We don't know if Ginny has nicknames for other people and this appears to be her nickname rather than everyones.  That said, if Ginny doesn't have nicknames for other nasty people, it shows just how personally offended by Fleur she feels.  Of course, it's also more personal as Ginny knows this is someone she's going to have to put up with for the rest of her life.   I agree with another poster who pointed out that Ginny is acting her age - one minute being a brat  and the next minute showing maturity.
 
Having had "houseguests from hell", I understand the need to go into a separate room and vent so that you can go back and try to be polite to the very people who seem intent on offending you.  You try to be a good hostess but they make it very hard indeed.  I had the advantage of knowing those people will never be invited to stay with us again.  The Weasleys don't have that to look forward to.
 
 


adairfletch  wrote:
I think what Shannon meant was that Ginny, Hermione, and Molly 
were doing exactly what they dislike Fleur for doing.  Yes, Fleur 
can be rude and disrespectful, but that is not an excuse for 
others to do it in return, be it in private or not, and personally, I'd rather someone insult me to my face instead of behind my back.  If the three dislike her haughty arrogance so much, than they 
should be doing their best to be above such behavior.  

Lynn:

It's a bit sanctimonious to say that people cannot have private opinions about people that aren't flattering.  And remember, Molly chides Ginny for using the nickname "Plegm" so I don't see how Molly gets put into that category anyway.  Perhaps Mother Theresa never made comments about someone to her friends but my guess is that most other people in the world have, particularly to close friends and family.

adairfletch  wrote

Um, the bit about Tonks... what?  I don't think anyone has meant to 
imply that we see someone letting themself go due to depression as 
wrong.  I think all anyone was implying is that it is wrong for a 
parent to force someone else on their child just because they don't 
like who their child has chosen, not when that chosen person makes 
said child happy.  And it's not like Fleur is straight out of "Fatal Attraction," let's please put some perspective on this: Molly has 
no real complaint against Fleur, other than Fleur being, as you 
describe, rude, disrepectful, and insulting.  

Lynn:

Fleur said Tonks was letting herself go and that it was a mistake.  Fleur didn't acknowledge it was due to depression, I doubt Fleur even noticed Tonk's mood.  Again, judgment based on appearance.  I'm still failing to see why everyone continues to say Molly was forcing Tonks on Bill.  Molly kept inviting Tonks over, it was others who gave it a reason and wrongly at that.  Who is Fleur to make the determination who Molly can invite to her house or why Molly invites someone to her house?  It's none of Fleur's business regardless of why she thinks it's happening.  It's Molly's house and if Fleur doesn't like it, Fleur can leave.

I find it interesting that someone being rude, disrepectful, and insulting to one is nothing to complain about.  Wonder if someone's boss, mother or best friend would feel the same way if it was them putting up with that type of behavior?

adairfletch  wrote
If Bill can look past it, then his family should too, for the simple reason of not wanting to alienate Bill or his future children.  If they can't look past it, then they need to learn to live with it, 
for Bill's sake.  And it would be different if Fleur were really as awful as you make her out to be, then I might be in your camp, but she's really not.  

Lynn:

It's easy for Bill to look past it, it's not happening to him.  And no, why should anyone have to put up with such rudeness and disrespect that Fleur shows.  But, as I said, I blame Bill for allowing it to go on.  If Fleur feels his family doesn't like her, Bill should be the one to confront the family about it.  At that time he'd probably find out how they are feeling as well.  IMO, it is not worth putting up with that type of rudeness regardless of the consequences.  It's demeaning and damages the ability to have a civil relationship and also damages the relationship with the 3rd party, eg. Bill.  If other people can handle it, more power to them.

And yes, Fleur really is that bad, IMO.  I concede how bad Fleur is perceived depends on how ill-mannered one thinks it is acceptable for a person to be.

adairfletch  wrote
And Ginny isn't the best example to use, because I have a feeling 
Ginny is just as rude to Fleur as Fleur is to her, when she can get 
away with it; Ginny isn't one to sit back and take an insult.  
Neither is Hermione the best example, really, because I think her 
dislike of Fleur stems more from the way Ron acts around her.  And 
Fleur is probably overly rude to Tonks, because Molly is making 
Tonks into a threat against her relationship with Bill.  Fleur is tearing down possible competition, and though it isn't the right thing for her to do, again, I think she does it out of insecurity.  Others judge her for being superficial, for only being a pretty 
face, but no one ever stops to think that Fleur might do the same thing to herself.  She's secure in her looks, because in other 
areas she probably doubts herself, just like we all do.

My point is that Fleur might always be annoying, but she isn't a 
horrible person.  Let's leave that category to the Wormtails, 
Bellatrixes, and Voldemorts of the world.

Lynn:

First, no one has said Fleur is a horrible person on the scale of the DEs.  She does have horrible manners and is rude, arrogant, self-absorebed, etc.  If Ginny is being rude to Fleur, you would think Fleur would have bought a clue by now, since she's this champion and intelligent person, that perhaps there's a reason for the rudeness.  I never got the impression that Hermione doesn't like Fleur because of Ron.  Hermione puts the blame for Ron's reaction on Ron himself, not on Fleur.  I think Hermione's feelings have much to do with Fleur's behavior all on it's own.

As for Ginny, this is a person who looks past what's on the outside and instead takes great stock about what's on the inside of the person.  We see this in how she relates to both Luna and Neville, two decidedly unpopular students.  Ginny strikes me as someone who has enough respect for her mother not to make things worse by being openly rude to Fleur.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Ginny's emnity comes from what she perceives as the denigration of her family.

Again, Molly isn't setting Tonks up as someone for Bill. Even if Molly was, that's no reason to be rude to Tonks.  Unless Tonks was openly flirting with Bill, Fleur has no reason to be concerned.  As far as Fleur's insecurity, nope, don't see it.  She has done nothing to give any indication of insecurity, only arrogance.  In fact, as I say below, Fleur shows her confidence.

adairfletch  wrote

Well, neither would I, but I doubt Molly would even accept Fleur's 
help, and that's what myself and other posters mean when we way 
Molly's behavior is just as rude.  And yes, the tray episode was 
disrepectful of Fleur, but if you'll go back and read it, she just 
wanted to say hello to Harry, whom Molly would not let her go see.

Lynn:

I disagree.  I think Molly would have welcomed an overture to help, it would mean Fleur wanted to be part of the family.  Again, who's making judgments?  Molly is constantly accepting help when it's offered.  As for the tray, Canon please where Molly doesn't let Fleur go to see Harry?  Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps Molly was adhering to general standards of courteous behavior that one doesn't go bursting into someone's bedroom while they are still in bed?  Ron, Hermione, Ginny and Molly have all seen Harry in his PJs.  They are like family to him and he's comfortable with them.  Fleur hasn't and isn't.  I don't consider myself a prude but I don't want anyone just bursting into my bedroom when I'm in bed unless they are someone with whom I'm comfortable.  Harry's reaction shows he feels pretty much the same way.  Obviously if she can't wait for Harry to get dressed she has very little impulse control.  If she wanted to see Harry so bad, she could have done the well-mannered
 thing - knocked and asked to be invited in.  Again, she shows her lack of respect for the family and Harry or her lack of intelligence not to understand that someone may not want her bursting in on them.  In addition, an insecure person wouldn't have burst through that door as if the world was waiting for them to arrive.  That takes confidence.

adairfletch  wrote

Or maybe she feels no one told Harry, because they don't want it 
broadcasted that Bill is marrying Fleur.  Again: self-absorbed vs. 
insecurity.  If Molly and the other girls have been subverting Fleur with other people, why would she not rush in to talk to Harry about 
the marriage first, especially since she likes Harry? 

Lynn:

When did they have time to tell Harry?  He arrived when people were in bed and they had just gone into his room to wake him up.  People keep pointing to her intelligence.  She's not showing much of it.  Again, canon for subversion with all these other people?  I don't blame her for wanting to tell Harry, it's wonderful news and she has every right to be excited about it.  To whip Molly across the face is inexcuseable.  To expect that to be the first news Harry hears from the family upon entering the house, is self-absorbed and self-centered.  Apparently it doesn't matter to her that perhaps the family was trying to find out how Harry was doing and were thinking of him first.  Or, better said, it hasn't occurred to her that perhaps this family is concerned with Harry's welfare enough to inquire after him first.  Mind you, it didn't occur to her to ask how Harry was doing which is generally considered good manners when you haven't seen someone for over a year.  I'm sure she would have
 heard about Harry's loss from Bill (if not, that doesn't say much about the relationship right there).  At least, that would have been my first concern, not wondering why the family hadn't yet told him the news.  Then again, I personally think the feelings of someone mourning the loss of a godparent would be a bit more important and immediate than my getting married next year.

adairfletch  wrote

Ok, now we're just making biased judgments.  How do we know if 
Fleur is hard-working or not?  We don't, we don't know enough about her to make that kind of judgement.  But she was in the Triwizard 
Tournament, so I wouldn't call her lazy.  Is Fleur really full of 
herself, or just insecure?  Again, we don't know.  And I understand 
the Veela doubt, but people seem to get use to being around her, 
except for maybe Ron.  And I don't think even Ron would propose to 
her just because of an infatuation, I'm sure Bill knows her better 
than we do.  

These kind of arguments irritate me, because they're the same kind 
of thing people have been using to argue against Harry/Ginny and Remus/Tonks.  We don't know enough to say whether or not these 
people are good for each other, and even if we did, who are we to 
say what makes someone happy?  


Lynn:

Um, no one called her lazy, who's making judgments?  I was pointing out how it could be perceived by someone, especially a mother who wants the best for her child that Fleur isn't as hard-working as Bill.  Molly has legitimate motherly concerns.  What I was trying to point out was that Molly's concerns are natural.  It's the type of concern a mother has throughout a child's life.  A child may really like a friend but is that friend really good for the child?  You know the child has to make decisions but you worry if they are making the right decisions, decisions that will affect their life.  It's a natural part of life and, though I'm not really a Molly fan, I think JKR has written her in this context spot on.

I don't think anyone other than the characters are making arguments about this relationship.  At least I'm not since I really don't care whether Fleur and Bill stay together.


adairfletch  wrote
  
Not if it's just bad music.  And personally, I can't stand the pop 
love ballads that consistently fill the airwaves.  Give me a Clash 
song to listen to any day over that garbage.

Lynn:

So, are you saying you think it is okay to be so rude to your hosts?  To openly make fun of your hostess? I mean, is this how you would act in someone's home?  You would go stay at a friend's house and make fun of the mother's choice in music in front of the mother?  You would have no problem behaving as Fleur does to a friend's family?  I know from what you said before that you wouldn't possibly do it privately because that in itself is rude.

I ask because if that is how you'd behave, it's no wonder we don't agree on Fleur's behavior and we never will.  We have very different views on what good manners are all about.

adairfletch  wrote

Well, like I said before, if she makes Bill happy, then we have no 
right to complain.  And if my nonexistent son became engaged to 
someone like her, or if one of my brothers did, I'd deal with it, 
for the reasons I mentioned above.  Fleur doesn't have to make 
Molly happy, she's supposed to be making Bill happy.

Lynn:

Just because someone can make them happy now, in the short term, doesn't mean they can make them happy in the future.  It's about knowing that they both love each other, a love that will see them through the worse not just the better.  I was 40 when I first got married and my husband went through the 3rd degree with both sides of my family and I went through it with his family.  You'd think they would have figured out we were old enough to know what we were doing.  Then again, we were mature enough to understand that our families are concerned for our welfare.  Also, I don't see anyone complaining about her making Bill happy.  Concerned, not complaining.  The complaints come from how she is treating everyone else.

adairfletch  wrote

Again, how do you know it's not humor?  How do you know she truly 
believes in the superficial?  Fleur was shocked, and you don't know 
how you would react in that situation, unless you've experienced 
something similar yourself.  The fact of the matter is, Molly does 
accept Fleur at the end, because Fleur loves Bill just as much 
disfigured as when he was whole.  If Molly can accept it, then so 
should we.

Lynn:

How do you know it is humor?  It's more in keeping with Fleur's arrogance than in any humor she's exhibited.  Yes, I do know what my reaction would be and it's pretty judgmental and hypocritical to say I wouldn't as apparently you know how you'd react even though you don't have a son and have never been in Molly's place.  

As for Molly accepting Fleur because she sees that Fleur really does love Bill, that's what I said.




		
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