Dumbledore, Aslan, Gandalf, and Obi

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 135621


> Magica wrote:
> > I think there are many similarities between the death of DD and 
> > Aslan, the great lion of Narnia, who is killed by the evil witch 

> Trish.
> I couldn't agree more. In fact, as a member of Narnia and LOTR 
> boards, HP comes up a lot there as well. Mostly with folks saying 
> that JKR stole storyline but there I do not agree. I think it is 
> just sour grapes on the popularity of HP. Personally, I think that 
> JKR does follow a model for these stories as you all know. So, 
> looking at the model of the top 3 SciFi/Fantasy series w/o HP:
> 
> Mentor:Hero:Mentor Chooses to Die IN FRONT OF HERO to make hero 
> stronger: Mentor comes 'back from dead' in some way::
> 
> Chronicals of Narnia:LWW
> Aslan:Susan/Lucy:Killed at stone table in front of S/L:Returned from 
> dead to win the fight against the white witch . Some would say more 
> powerful and since there are all those Christian paralels I would 
> say probably. 
> 
> LOTR
> Gandalf:Fellowship(Frodo): Killed fighting the meany balrog in front 
> of fellowship (or at least sucked away right?): Returned to win the 
> fight against sauron but in White form, much more stronger magic.
> 
> Star Wars
> ObiWon Kenobi:Luke: Killed by Darth Vadar in front of Luke (some say 
> he waited for Luke) : Returned as a voice of the force to help Luke 
> at all times so he could defeat the Dark Side.
> --this one is my husbands, but it sure fits too!
> 
> So now we have three ways to approach HP
> 
> Dumbledore:Harry Potter: Killed by Snape with HP in a frozen state 
> as to witness the event: Returns or not in some way
> 
> What are the choices:
> 1) Rises from dead : I don't believe JKR would do this, too 
> associated with dark magic now.
> 2) Nothing, DD is gone, a distant memory and anyway, he didn't 
> choose to die he JUST was ak'd
> 3) DD more powerfully speaks to Harry in certain ways: Through 
> portrait, through letters, through his need to avenge his death 
> along with his parents...I don't know.

Valky:
I too agree with you both.

just a small aside on Obi Wan Kenobi: The reason he was able to return
stronger and as the voice of the force for Luke, is revealed at the
end of episode three - He is instructed by 'his' Mentor Qui Gong Jin
while he is alone on Tatooine on afterlife immortality and returning
from the netherverse (one suspects he didn't only visit Luke after his
death but perhaps Anikin/Vader as well) .. 

All very interesting actually in terms of HBP and Dumbledore's
Immortality and the Adventure beyond death are an important theme in
HBP and it appears from a few small hints also relevant to DD's death. 
I don't think he will rise from the dead exactly, but his afterlife
power is quite possibly foreshadowed by some of the images that
surround his death and his burial in HBP.

Now I'm going to talk a little Alchemy, so those who would prefer I
would't you can turn away or you can add any other generic brand of
wisdom or construe it otherwise religiously, it will work... lol

There is an Alchemical proces known as sublimatio, this process is
supposed by the alchemist to release the spirit hidden within the
matter. It is called the expulsion of the Quicksilver. 

Johnes Ruta
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A low substance is translated into a higher substance by an ascending
movement: Earth  is transformed into Air; a fixed body is volitatized;
that which is *inferus* into that which is *superus*. The sublimate
flies up from earth, and is transported to heaven. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The description of sublimatio rings an enourmous bell about HBP. First
we have the *inferi* (inferus) which are ..shudder.. the dead raised
and walking, and then we have the Phoenix of Dumbledore (superus)
flying up from his tomb straight towards the sky. 
In Alchemical Sublimatio they are the same thing, inferis the lower
form of the spirit raised from matter, and superus the higher form. So
if we take these to be symbols of this nature then we have already
witnessed Dumbledore's resurrection in the higher form. 

But how he will reach Harry from his netherverse is anybody's guess,
really. One thing that might be relevant is the scene in POA the
movie, which some thought to be one of the scenes tht gave JKR shivers
because of it's portends, the scene when Sirius tells Harry that the
ones we love never leave us and are always in our heart.  This could
mean that resurrected Dumbledore will come directly through Harry
himself, from Harry's heart. 

 

> 
> 
> Magica also said
> > How do these magical portraits work, has anyone discussed this 
> > before? Must they be painted by a special artist while the person  
> > is still alive, maybe leaving some of his or hers sole in the 
> > portrait through a mini-horcrux?
> 
> Me again:
> I don't think it is a mini-horcrux persay because Horcruxes don't 
> seem to be 'okay' magic. They are not even spoken of. But there is 
> something to the portraits. I don't think they are exactly 'painted' 
> either, Dumbledores appeared in his office rather quickly. But they 
> do have thoughts, feelings etc. and CAN deliver messages unlike a 
> photograph. Also, not everyone has a painting. I know this was 
> talked about years ago on this board but I don't know what JKR has 
> said on it. Anyone??
> 
>  

Valky:
The Portraits are, as I understand what JKR has said about them,
merely a partial representation of the wizard captured in print.
According to JKR they simply repeat catchphrases and represent a
version of the subject wizard. They have no actual link or real time
connection to the subject wizard. 

I expect Dumbledores portrait was created and placed by a magical
brush not dissimilar from the magical quill that records the names of
every wizard child born. Dumbledores portrait will very likely be a
fountain of wonderful wisdom and Harry may consult it, but I believe
any wisdom from the portrait will be relatively generic and not much
more than a reminder of the principles that Dumbledore has already
tried to pass on to Harry. Portrait!DD, I believe, will be of much
greater use to MacGonagall than Harry.

Valky