Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;)

[kiricat4001]

No: HPFGUIDX 135636

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pansophy2000" 
<pansophy2000 at y...> wrote:

> Marianne:
> 
> >I have to agree with Sherry on the question of the inadvisability 
of
> >keeping Harry in the dark about whatever grand scheme Snape and DD
> >supposedly came up with to cover this non-death. After all, that
> >tactic blew up in their faces once before.

pan:
> Well, an easy answer to that is that Harry never mastered 
occulmency 
> and therefore if Harry knows DD is alive then there is a real risk 
> that Voldermort could also discover this. 

Marianne:
I don't think it's as simple as that.  We spent half of OoP 
agonizing over the Occlumency lessons, which, as DD told us in HBP, 
were a "fiasco."  And, lo and behold, Occlumency for Harry is 
suddenly of no importance at all in HBP. Had this been of such grave 
importance, I'm sure Dumbledore could have spared an hour or two a 
week to teach Harry himself.  However, my impression is that this is 
now a non-starter - Harry doesn't need this to protect himself from 
the invasions of Vmort.  Why?  Because Harry has the ability to love 
people, which is anethema to Vmort. Think of how Voldemort was 
summarily ejected from Harry in the ending of the battle at the MOM, 
when Vmort simply couldn't abide linking to a brain/person who could 
actually feel love, as Harry did for Sirius.  

pan:
> The goal of faking DD's death would be three fold.  One, Snape 
would 
> have increased status with Voldermort and the Death Eaters and 
hence 
> access to more information and oppertunities to assist the Order.

Marianne:
But, at this point the Order believes Snape has betrayed them.  
Harry may well be wrong in his assessment, but nevertheless, the 
Order knows DD trusted Snape on what appears to be the flimsy reason 
of remorse over the fate of James and Lily, and he, to their 
knowledge, has just killed DD.
 
Pan: 
> Voldermort would likely come out of hiding and expose himself in 
> ways that he would not if DD was alive.

Marianne:
Would he?  Why? He has a whole crowd of people that seem to be 
willing to do whatever he wishes. Why should he expose himself 
needlessly?  Of course, he already exposed himself at the MOM at the 
end of OoP, when his bumbling DEs proved incapable of defeating a 
bunch of teenagers, so maybe you're right.  You just can't get good 
help these days....

Pan:
And thirdly death is the 
> perfect cover for DD to continue to his search for ways to destroy 
> Voldermort and protect Harry from behind the scenes.  

Marianne:

And that's one part of my problem with this.  DD continuing to 
control the story, dig out the information, direct the "hero", is 
old news at this point.  Maybe you're right and this is what JKR has 
up her sleeve.  If so, the last book could be called "Marianne's Cat 
and the Tomb of Voldemort."  Harry would be as incidental as a piece 
of furniture. Harry is then no more than a tool in the hands of the 
grand master, Dumbledore.  

Pan:
> The question is what advantage does DD's death have as a story 
> teller.  Well, at least for me it makes me feel like Harry is our 
> last hope of destroying Voldermort, and therefore if he does it 
then 
> Harry will be all the more the hero.  

Marianne:

Agreed, but, he will be the hero if DD has indeed bit the proverbial 
dust. If Dumbledore rises and again leads the way, then Harry is no 
more than the hammer DD needs to pound in that last nail in the 
coffin.

Pan:
> However IMO, this line of the story goes against many of the 
themes 
> we've seen thus far.  For one, while Harry has escaped Voldermort 
> more than any other person, he has also had loads of help in each 
> book, not to mention some luck.  
> 
> Also, for me, if we are to believe that love will ultimately 
destroy 
> Voldermort, then isn't it a bitter pill to swallow that love's 
> siblings "trust" and "faith" in others would be the thing that 
kills 
> DD?  

Marianne:
Well, not so bitter if you happen to be a fan of irony.

Pan:
> Frankly, given Harry's complete inability to handle even Snape, I 
> don't see how Harry can realistically handle Voldermort in the 
span 
> of a single book and I just don't see how it can be done with DD.  
> Even if Snape kills Voldermort, or makes it possible, no one would 
> believe that he didn't kill DD for his own advantage no matter 
what 
> he said or did. 

Marianne:
I'm not sure where you're going with this.  Harry can't handle 
Snape, so, thus, he can't handle an even more powerful wizard, 
Voldemort. Are you saying, that if DD doesn't come back to help 
Harry in some way, that if Harry defeats Vmort by himself you would 
not find this credible? And that the deed will fall to Snape, but no 
one will give him any credit because he's Snape?

Pan:
> One more thing, as a story-teller, Serius' death may have been 
> necessary for us to believe that DD could really be dead. Plus, 
> bringing DD back in some way does not seem as trite given that a 
> main character does in fact die in the series. 

Marianne:

Well, if JKR's only reason to bump off Sirius is to make me believe 
that DD could also die, when she's really planning on bringing him 
back, then that's an incredibly stupid reason. Especially, if what 
you seem to suggest is some authorial sleight of hand:  Sirius is 
killled off, so I'll believe it when DD is apparently killed.  And, 
then, in Book 7, DD springs up alive?  And, I'm supposed to be happy 
about this?  I'd feel manipulated in the extreme.

Pan:
> In my mind, it is perfectly plausible that the the liquid Harry 
> forced Dumbledore to drink at the horocrux site was really a 
potion 
> devised by Dumbledore/Snape to put the drinker into suspended 
> animation for some period of time...enough time for a furneral and 
> such to take place. Snape triggers the final step of the potion 
with 
> a silent spell, feigns the forbidden curse, and leaves as if he 
has 
> killed DD. When DD awakes after a few days buried in the ground, 
he 
> simply appartates to the location of his choosing.

Marianne:

Well, in my mind, it's not plausible at all. So the RAB person did 
whatever to the potion in order to place the fake locket there. And 
then DD and Snape figured all that out, replaced the potion with 
some other potion, set up the scene so that DD and Harry would have 
their adventure, but it was all a hoax?

So when DD blows back into Hogwarts in Book 7 Harry will be so happy 
to see him that he'll ignore the fact that he's once again been DD's 
toy? Sorry, not buying it.

Pan:
> Harry's inability to block Voldermort from his mind would mean 
that 
> he would have to be in the dark on the plan.  Plus, Harry would 
> confirm to everyone (and believe) that Snape killed DD, as would 
the 
> Death Eaters to Voldermort, ensuring that Snape would be in good 
> position to help the order when the time comes and faciltate 
> Voldermort's false sense of invincibility. 

Marianne: See above. Voldemort's attempts to enter Harry's mind have 
been a moot point throughout HBP. And, again, after Harry's 
assertions in the hospital wing after DD's death (whether or not 
he's correct in his assumptions) lead to everyone's believing that 
Snape murdered DD.

Pan:
> To me at least, the plausiblity of the story becomes much harder 
> with DD dead than alive, and the overarching lesson that love is 
> greater than evil becomes blury at best. 

Marianne: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but if the final 
denoument of the story hinges on DD's reappearance as a living, 
functioning being, then the story falls to the level of soap opera 
for me. I don't understand why the idea that love is greater than 
evil hinges on DD showing up alive.  I think Harry's task is to find 
the balance in his emotions.  When he gives in to them totally, 
horrible things can happen (Sirius' death).  But, without them, he'd 
be almost no better than Vmort. Or Snape. Harry has to be the one to 
find a way to channel his strengths, rein in his occasionally over-
the-top emotional responses and ultimately defeat Voldemort.  DD is 
not going to be the savior.

Marianne 

> -pan