House Elves and justice, etc

[kgpopp]

No: HPFGUIDX 129834

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn at y...> wrote:
> You seem to imply that honour, integrity, values etc. is something 
> inherent to human (or elfish as the case may be) beings. Well, they 
> are not. They are culturally constructed concepts and they are 
> nurtured. You may be by nature calm, bad-tempered, kind, cruel etc. 
> but you, even if you are free modern human being, can't be 
> dignified or honourable by nature. This is something you learn to 
> be in the course of your life and education. Draco can be naturally 
> arrogant and even cruel, but he cannot be "naturally" prejudiced 
> against muggles. This is something he has learned. Hermione can be 
> naturally kind-hearted and brave, but she cannot be "naturally 
> principled". She must have acquired these principles together with 
> the knowledge of alphabet and numbers. 
> 
> Suppose you were captured and made slave (which God forbid, of 
> course). You would try to preserve your dignity; you would cling to 
> that quote from Eleanor Roosevelt, you would remind yourself that
> so long as you have you free will your spirit is not broken.  But 
> suppose you were born slave? More importantly, raised as one? 
> Suppose you never heard of dignity much less of Eleanor Roosevelt? 
> Suppose you grew up among other poor wretches and were taught since 
> when you could remember that you are lowly sort? That you are by 
> nature slave? That God himself ordained it so that you and all your 
> kin exist only for a purpose to serve your masters? You'd have to 
> possess a really exceptional personality to withstand the pressure 
> of convention, I am afraid. Dobby has, but then he *is* exceptional 
> (or a weirdo, depends on one's point of view). 
> 
>  As for honour or justice – it's simply mockery to apply these 
> terms to slaves. Honour implies superiority both moral and social. 
> Justice implies authority both in terms morality and in terms of 
> power. Slaves are inferior (socially and according to 
> convention "naturally") and subject to their masters' authority.


Kristen Again:
Good point I did not mean to imply that honor, integrity, or a 
person's values are inherent to human.  I totally agree that these 
are learned behaviors.   I'll even agree that if I were born a slave 
into a society where Slaves where common it is a very good possiblity 
that I would accept my circumstance and even think I was inferior to 
my owner or the ruling class.   

However I still think that in this case I can still act with honor 
and dignity if I hold true to my values and beliefs and take pride in 
the work and things I do.  I'm not saying that I'd see myself as 
having the same rank or level of honor that my owner my have.  But I 
can still act with honor.  Now depending on the beliefs I've been 
taught, other may or may not find my actions to be honorable but that 
is also true of a person who is free. (I don't think I'll convince 
you of this and that is okay.) 

2nd, not sure if you agree with my point about free will but...  Even 
I were condemned to the situation to which you describe I would still 
argue that I have free will.  I may be trained or brought up to do as 
I'm told, but in the end my actions are still my choice no matter how 
much pressure the environment exerts on me.  I may feel that I have 
no choice, and I may never decide to do what I want but I stand by my 
arguement that I do have a choice.  (Assuming that is that I'm not 
under the Imperius Curse. :-)

3rd and last I would argue that given humans and other cognizant 
beings ability to learn and adapt; I still hold that some who are 
born into slavery will challenge the situation (If not physically at 
least mentally).  And if they challenge the assumptions, I think it 
is possible for a slave to decided that they are not naturally 
inferior.     I see a multitude of ways this could happen: 
- They could see that there are differences in skills and abilities 
within the ruling class and differences in skills and values of slaves and draw a conclusion that if educated and trained that they could do more.
- They could just have a really stupid owner and come to realize that 
they and other slaves tend to make better decisions. 
- They could have a parent or owner who instills in them idea that 
they can do anything if they work at it. 

Again: I won't go so far as to claim that this is necessarily wide 
spread or common but 
. I do think it is part of human nature to 
learn and adapt so I do think over time slaves could question the 
assumptions on which slavery is founded.