House Elves and justice, etc

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 129863

 
> Kristen:
><snip>
> However I still think that in this case I can still act with honor 
> and dignity if I hold true to my values and beliefs and take pride 
in 
> the work and things I do.  <snip>

a_svirn:

But if you agree with me that honour and dignity is something 
one "learns", I don't see how you would behave with either if you 
hadn't been "taught" to be honourable and dignified in the first 
place. Not to mention that for a slave dignified behaviour would 
entail certain logistical problems (and very unpleasant 
consequences). 


> 2nd, not sure if you agree with my point about free will but...  
Even 
> I were condemned to the situation to which you describe I would 
still 
> argue that I have free will.  I may be trained or brought up to do 
as 
> I'm told, but in the end my actions are still my choice no matter 
how 
> much pressure the environment exerts on me.  I may feel that I 
have 
> no choice, and I may never decide to do what I want but I stand by 
my 
> arguement that I do have a choice.  (Assuming that is that I'm not 
> under the Imperius Curse. :-)

a_svirn:

Well, I have nothing against Free Will, but I don't see the 
immediate connection with the matter of honour and dignity. Your 
will may be as free as they come, but your choices are limited by 
the combination of natural and cultural constraints, after all. 

> 
> 3rd and last I would argue that given humans and other cognizant 
> beings ability to learn and adapt; I still hold that some who are 
> born into slavery will challenge the situation (If not physically 
at 
> least mentally).  And if they challenge the assumptions, I think 
it 
> is possible for a slave to decided that they are not naturally 
> inferior. 

a_svirrn:

Yes, well, I never said it is impossible for a slave to challenge 
the assumption of his or her inferiority. I just pointed out that 
said slave should be exceptional indeed. 


I see a multitude of ways this could happen: 
> - They could see that there are differences in skills and 
abilities  within the ruling class and differences in skills and 
values of slaves and draw a conclusion that if educated and trained 
that they could do more.

a_svirn:
But ideology of inequality is more subtle than that, you see:  you 
are not inferior or superior because you are less or more skilled or 
less or more intelligent. You are inferior or superior just because 
you are. Just because that's in your nature. Just because God 
ordained it so. 


> - They could just have a really stupid owner and come to realize 
that 
> they and other slaves tend to make better decisions. 

a-svirn:

Ah, but it doesn't change the basic principle. If someone with a 
deeply imbedded "slave mentality" found themselves in a possession 
of a "bad" owner, they wouldn't crave for freedom, but rather for 
a "good" master. That's, by the way, the Kreacher's case.  


> - They could have a parent or owner who instills in them idea that 
> they can do anything if they work at it. 

a_svirn:

Hmm
 But wouldn't that owner have to free them first, if he or she 
is in earnest? In which case they wouldn't be slaves anymore, would 
they?