Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".)

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 130010

> Ginger:  

<snipped>

 I am entitled to my paycheck.  I got one tonight, covering last 
week 
> and the week before, but not this week.  I am entitled to my pay 
for 
> this week, but I have to wait until the right time.  I'm not going 
> into accounting in the morning and saying "I put in a full week, 
and 
> Joe was on vacation, and I had to train the temps and they 
wouldn't 
> listen and I hit my head on the forklift so hard my ears plugged 
up 
> and the computer acted up and the nutcase who knows everything was 
in 
> my face and I WANT MY MONEY."  
> 
> None of this would be incorrect information on my part, and no one 
in 
> accounting would doubt that I worked those hours, but I still 
> wouldn't get the check.  And it would probably be my last when it 
> came.

This isn't the greatest analogy because you signed a contract that 
says when you will get payed and how much. Harry didn't get a 
contract that said when he would get to put in the know.  He didn't 
get told, you do this and we can tell you everything (BTW, the most 
effective teaching technique would have been to tell Harry that he 
could be made a Junior OOTP member once he learned to Keep Voldie 
out.  He would have learned occulomency faster than that summoning 
charm).  He was just left to hang in the dark.

> It isn't I'm entitled!Harry that made me want to sit him down and 
> give him a good talking to.  It was Impatient!Harry.

I agree with you that Harry was impatient and I think rightfully so. 
Maybe its because I am not the worlds most patient person but I was 
completely in Harry's corner the whole book.   There could have been 
a thousand different ways to convey information to Harry in a way 
that Voldemort couldn't get to.  Dumbledore just didn't implement 
them because he wanted to keep Harry ignorant. He just didn't want 
to say anything becuase he couldn't face the responsibility. the 
person in the wrong throughout the book isn't Harry. It'sDumbledore 
and the people he convinces to leave Harry out of the loop.
  
> This isn't about Harry alone any more.  It is Order business.  
Which 
> they are, by their membership, not allowed to divulge.  Not 
just "we 
> can't tell Harry" but "we can't tell all these kids".  

That didn't matter.  It was Harry who couldn't learn anything.  Ron 
and Hermione were shielded because they are teenagers, Harry wasn't 
told because he had a phone line to the dark lord in his head. the 
fact that he would share info with his friends doesn't matter a lick.
 
> During Occlumency lessons, Snape tells Harry *exactly* why he 
needs 
> the lessons.  LV may be in his head.  They suspected it, but only 
> after Arthur was attacked did they know it.  All good reason not 
to 
> say anything in front of Harry that they didn't want LV to know.  
> Harry has had visions that he *is* LV.  The connection has been 
> explained to him as well as they understand it.  And he is still 
> Impatient!Harry.  

No it wasn't.  They kew exactly what Voldemort was after and how he 
was going to try and get it. thats why they weren't telling him 
anything. All Snape told him was that Voldemort could get into his 
head and use his emotions.  Not the why of the situation.  Why would 
Voldemort spend his time picking through Harry's head?  why would he 
try to make Harry do anything?  Harry doesn't have any knowledge, 
power and influnce for Voldemort go after (as far as Harry knew), 
what could he possibly want that was locked in Harry's head?

How hard would it have been to say, "Harry, voldemort will want you 
do something. no I can't tell you what until after you learn 
occulomency. but if you have any strange urges or dreams, for gods 
sake don't give in to them. they will most likely be a trick!"


> In some cases, what they weren't telling Harry was information 
that 
> they didn't know, or had only a vague guess about. 

Dumbledore knew the answer to virtually every question Harry asked 
in OOTP. he just played things too close to the chest. 

 
> The ideal solution, IMO, would have been to have someone go to the 
> Dursley neighbourhood incognito, catch Harry as he was wandering 
> around, and just tell him, "I know you have a ton of questions, 
but 
> they will have to wait for your own personal safety.  We can't 
tell 
> you everything because we're still figuring it out.  We'll keep 
you 
> posted.  Stay cool.  You know you have to stay with these creeps 
for 
> your protection, so hang tight.  We'll send for you as soon as 
> possible.  We're working on it."  

I think this would have been a great compromise.

> The long and short of it (too late for the short, I know) is that 
> Harry had good reason to feel the way he did, and the Order had 
good 
> reason to act as it did.  There just needed to be a bridge (the 
> Order's fault) and Harry needed to chill out (Harry's fault).  

Actually the order's reasons weren't good. Dmbledore admits that it 
was wrong to leave Harry in the dark for the year. Tat says to me 
that Dumbledore had a method to give Harry information and he just 
decided not to use it because that meant Harry would have to learn 
the prophecy that dumbledore didn't want to share. I say about 90% 
of the blame is on Dumbledore, about 9% is on the rest of the order 
for going along with such crapy decision making and 1% on Harry.
 
> Given Harry's recent trauma and the fact that he is still a 
teenager 

I have a minority opinion of one on this list apparently. I don't 
think Harry's attitude has much to do with him being a teenager and 
everything to do with being Harry.  Harry is a doer. he needs to 
feel like he is participating and helping out with the war effort. 
shutting him in Hogwarts drove him about as insane as Sirius went 
over at the GP.  Virtually any other teenager would have either 
passively went along with the order (Hermione, Neville) or grumbled 
about being treated like a kid but still not done much (Ron, 
Ginny).  Harry is proactive in a way that no other character in the 
book is and no one in the order honored that. Frankly I think they 
could have gotten away with hiding a whole lot more from Harry if 
they just made him feel like what he was doing mattered to the war 
effort. if Dumbledore or Snape connected learning occulomency to 
some kind of reward like becoming a junior member of the order or 
some knowledge about what was going on, I think Harry would have 
thrown himself into the lessons with gusto, regardless of who was 
teaching them. but he was expected to just learn them with no added 
promises of being brought more into the know. contrast that with if 
he could just make it through that door...

this whole conversation reminds me of why I didn't like OOTP. the 
book relies too much on smart characters being stupid. I don't have 
a hundred years of teaching experience and even I know that kids 
will go to the bat for you if you give them some trust and 
responsibility.  They, like everyone else, want to feel like what 
they do matters.

phoenixgod2000