Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".)

[quigonginger]

No: HPFGUIDX 130022

Phoenixgod said: 
Harry didn't get a 
> contract that said when he would get to put in the know.  He didn't 
> get told, you do this and we can tell you everything (BTW, the most 
> effective teaching technique would have been to tell Harry that he 
> could be made a Junior OOTP member once he learned to Keep Voldie 
> out.  He would have learned occulomency faster than that summoning 
> charm).  He was just left to hang in the dark.

Ginger: 
True! He wasn't given a contract at all.  LV just decided that he was 
the one to go after and kill.  Everyone on the good side has been 
risking themselves to protect Harry (and the WW through him).  If 
anything, Harry should be badgering LV for information.

I like the jr. OoP technique.  If nothing else, it would have given 
him a goal to work towards and kept his mind off whining.

Phoenixgod:
> I agree with you that Harry was impatient and I think rightfully 
so. 
> Maybe its because I am not the worlds most patient person but I was 
> completely in Harry's corner the whole book.   

Ginger: 
I have extremely limited patience, which is why I was so annoyed with 
Impatient!Harry.  I go throught this at work every time I have to 
train someone.  You know what you are doing.  You have the 
experience, but they know it all after 5 minutes because they used to 
work in a beet plant (or whatever) and can't be bothered with things 
like "Turn off the air pressure before you stick your hand in the 
compressor or you can squish your hand."  Just following orders seems 
to be beneath people's dignity these days.  I have no patience with 
impatience ;)

Phoenixgod:
There could have been 
> a thousand different ways to convey information to Harry in a way 
> that Voldemort couldn't get to.  

Ginger:  Complete agreement here!

Phoenixgod:
Dumbledore just didn't implement 
> them because he wanted to keep Harry ignorant. He just didn't want 
> to say anything becuase he couldn't face the responsibility. the 
> person in the wrong throughout the book isn't Harry. It'sDumbledore 
> and the people he convinces to leave Harry out of the loop.

Ginger:  
I'd only partly agree with this.  Until LV came back, DD really had 
no reason to let Harry in on a lot of the stuff, and when he did come 
back, there was the scar connection thing.  Harry gets a larger share 
of the blame from me than he gets from you simply because the whole 
time he was demanding answers, he wasn't listening.  Not *really* 
listening.  He wanted to know what he wanted to know at the time, and 
everything else people told him just went in one ear and out the 
other.  It didn't qualify to him, so he just kept on a-ranting.  
 
Phoenixgod:
> No it wasn't.  They kew exactly what Voldemort was after and how he 
> was going to try and get it. thats why they weren't telling him 
> anything. 

Ginger:
Do you think they knew the whole prophecy thing?  I got the 
impression that the adults other than DD didn't know exactly 
what "the weapon" was.  I really didn't think that they knew 
specificly that LV would make Harry go to the DoM.  I had thought 
that DD and Snape only figured this out *after* Harry started 
Occulemency lessons and Snape saw the dreams in Harry's head. Before 
that, I thought it was just general worry about the scar connection.  
I could be wrong on this.  I don't think it ever really says.

Phoenixgod:
All Snape told him was that Voldemort could get into his 
> head and use his emotions. 

Ginger:  I'm thinking that would suffice.  "There's a Dark Lord in 
your head.  I'm going to teach you to keep him out."  I don't know 
about you, but as curious as I may be about *why* someone's reading 
my mind, the fact that they are would be enough to make me serious 
about getting them out. 

Phoenixgod:
 Not the why of the situation.  Why would 
> Voldemort spend his time picking through Harry's head?  why would 
he 
> try to make Harry do anything?  Harry doesn't have any knowledge, 
> power and influnce for Voldemort go after (as far as Harry knew), 
> what could he possibly want that was locked in Harry's head?

Ginger:  Until Snape saw the dream, did anyone know?  Even DD was 
only guessing at this point. 

Phoenixgod:
> How hard would it have been to say, "Harry, voldemort will want you 
> do something. no I can't tell you what until after you learn 
> occulomency. but if you have any strange urges or dreams, for gods 
> sake don't give in to them. they will most likely be a trick!"
> 
Ginger:  I don't think they knew quite that much, but I agree with 
the sentiment.  "Harry, LV is trying to access your mind.  He may put 
things there.  When you learn to block things out, *then* we can tell 
you all.  Right now, you're an open book.  Whatever we tell you, we 
are telling him."

Phoenixgod:
> I have a minority opinion of one on this list apparently. I don't 
> think Harry's attitude has much to do with him being a teenager and 
> everything to do with being Harry.  

Ginger:  I'd say being Harry (as you say later, a "doer") does play a 
part.  So does his trauma, and, recalling my teenage years when I was 
as much of a self-centered little $4!+ as Harry, I'd say that his 
immaturity does come into play.

He isn't mature enough to see the situation as a larger picture.  He 
is only interested in his own piece of the puzzle, and if it doesn't 
fit with the whole, then screw the whole.  Very immature attitude.  
Some people don't grow out of it, and for those types, I'd say it is 
part of their personality, but I have found those "me-centred" people 
to be much stupider than Harry, so I'm chalking it up to Harry's age 
rather than making a character judgement.

I'm snipping the rest as this is getting long and I think your points 
are valid, although I'd quibble a tad on specifics.
Thanks for your response, Ginger