"Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications.

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 130048

>>Lupinlore:
>I'll have to agree with Phoenixgod here, I don't recall Harry 
getting any draft papers along the way.<

Betsy Hp:
"They're saying he tried to kill the Potter's son, Harry.  But -- he 
couldn't.  He couldn't kill that little boy.  No one knows why, or 
how, but they're saying that when he couldn't kill Harry Potter, 
Voldemort's powers somehow broke -- and that's why he's gone." (SS 
paperback p. 12)

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches [...] 
born as the seventh month dies [...] The one with the power to 
vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies.... 
(OotP scholastic hardback p.841)

>>Lupinlore:
>I also don't recall anybody giving Dumbledore a crown and sceptre 
and proclaiming him high king of all wizards and witches.<

Betsy Hp:
"Everyone knows you're the only one You-Know- oh all right, 
*Voldemort*, was frightened of."
"You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly.  (SS p.11)

"Albus Dumbledore (currently headmaster of Hogwarts).  Considered by 
many the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore is particularly 
famous for his defeat of the dark wizard  Grindelwald in 1945..." 
(ibid pp.102-103)

"Voldemort has returned," Dumbledore repeated.  "If you accept that 
fact straightaway, Fudge, and take the necessary measures, we may 
still be able to save the situation." 
[...]
"You -- you cannot be serious!" Fudge gasped, shaking his head and 
retreating further from Dumbledore."
[...]
"If your determination to shut your eyes will carry you as far as 
this, Cornelius," said Dumbledore, "we have reached a parting of the 
ways.  You must act as you see fit.  And I -- I shall act as I see 
fit."
[...]
"The only one against whom I intend to work," said Dumbledore, "is 
Lord Voldemort.  If you are against him, then we remain, Cornelius, 
on the same side." (GoF scholastic hardback pp.707-709)

>>Tonks:
<snip> 
>Also Harry is not yet an adult and should still do as he is told by 
an adult in authority over him.<
<snip>

>>Lupinlore:
>Not when the adult is a sadistic moron, you don't.<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
I don't recall Dumbledore ever being referred to as a sadistic 
moron.  

"Listen to me Harry," he said urgently, "you must study Occlumency as 
hard as you can, do you understand me?  Do everything Professor Sanpe 
tells you and practice it particularly every night before sleeping so 
that you can close your mind to bad dreams -- you will understand why 
soon enough but you must promise me --" (OotP p.622)

>>Lupinlore: 
>And why should he listen to anyone, as they were quite pointedly 
failing to attempt to understand his situation and help?  Because 
they're "adults?"  That's good for a belly laugh.<

Betsy Hp:
You'll have to point out some examples of adults failing to listen to 
Harry and trying to help him.  I've looked through the books and yes, 
Sirius lets him down when he first shares his fears, but Dumbledore 
and Snape are specifically attacking what most worries him -- being 
possessed by Voldemort.  And Harry *does* realize that's what the 
Occlumency is for.  He says as much to Snape.  Only Harry decides 
that it's worth being possessed by Voldemort if he can only keep 
having his nifty dream.  Despite all the adults' (and Hermione's) 
attempts to tell him that the dreams are dangerous. 

>>Lupinlore: 
>Oh, now this is REALLY a stretch.  Failure of communication between 
adult and teenager being led astray by the forces of evil?  I'm sure 
my mother and father never knew how many times they supped with Satan!
<

Betsy Hp:
Well, I *am* giving Harry the benefit of the doubt here and supposing 
that his highly stupid insistence on keeping up with the dream after 
he *knows* that Voldemort is aware of their particular link is 
partially because of Voldemort's subtle influence.  Though if you 
read through all of Harry's dreams (as Amanga Geist does in her post 
here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129474 ) it 
seems fairly obvious that Voldemort *is* influencing Harry.

>>Lupinlore: 
>Excuse me, I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type for the tears.  
Snape, the voice of reason over emotion?  I guess when you discount, 
oh -- pretty much everything about him, that might have an extreme 
outside chance of being vaguely true.<

Betsy Hp:
After you finish laughing, Lupinlore, I'd love to hear your 
explanations as to the many times Snape has saved Harry's life, the 
reason he took part in the Occlumency lessons in the first place, and 
his putting up with Sirius in order to talk to Harry about Occlumency 
lessons.  Emotionally, as far as we know, I'm sure Snape would have 
rather told Sirius to stick it, and left Harry to mentally battle 
with Voldemort on his own.  I won't say that Snape is completely in 
control of his emotions (witness PoA) but he's certainly not as ruled 
by them as, say, Sirius.  And if Harry had contained his own 
emotions, he may have thought to check with Snape before flying off 
to the Ministry.

>>Tonks:
<snip> 
>I know that we all love Harry and he is a kid, and has been through 
a lot, but we really can't let him off the hook here.<

>>Lupinlore: 
>Of course we can.  Dumbledore has it right in taking the blame on 
himself.<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
But if that's the case than there's *no way* Harry should ever be 
allowed *near* the Order.  If Harry is so extremely disconnected from 
his actions then he is far too much a child to take any part in a 
war. Dumbledore holds some blame, but Harry hold some blame as well.  
For Harry to become an adult he must recognize and atone for the 
mistakes he's made so that he doesn't make them again.  Otherwise, 
he's an untrustworthy child.

>>Lupinlore:
<snip>
>He can and does screw up royally.  And in OOTP, he screwed up more 
than royally -- he screwed up on an Imperial scale.<

Betsy Hp:
Yes, Dumbledore erred, but not *that* badly.  (Unless I totally 
misread the ending of OotP, the Order scored a bit of a victory 
there.) Dumbledore hesitated in telling Harry that he (Harry) is the 
weapon Sirius was referring to back in the beginning of OotP.  I 
think it was a very human mistake.  Who wants to tell a child they 
care for that they're destined to become a killer?  But if Harry 
leans on that mistake and insists that all other mistakes flowed from 
that one, and that therefore he, Harry, is completely in the clear, 
well then Harry is refusing to grow.  And there ain't nothing healthy 
or powerful in that.

>>Lupinlore: 
>It broke my heart to seach such an abysmal mess of a book after 
JKR's first four triumphs.
<snip>
In this case, as phoenixgod has pointed out, it's a story about 
otherwise smart people like Dumbledore who inexplicably act like 
utter idiots in a particularly tense and important situation.  One 
can only hope they manage to find some brains before they manage to 
screw things up worse (although since we have two whole books to go 
yet, they may very well not).<

Betsy Hp:
Obviously, you're entitled to your opinion, and I doubt I can change 
your mind.  Though I do see some circular reasoning going on here.  I 
thought you saw Dumbledore as a hopeless idiot and cold-hearted 
bastard from SS/PS on?  That's what you've seemed to have argued in 
other postings regarding Dumbledore's treatment of Harry and 
reactions to various events, IIRC.  So if you think Dumbledore was an 
idiot in OotP, wouldn't that be an example of JKR's consistency?

Betsy Hp, who *loved* OotP, especially when it showed Dumbledore 
thinking on his feet, and who will continue to pimp Amanda Geist's 
post regarding the Occlumency lessons until all have been 
assimilated. heh.