"Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications.

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 130058

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" 
<horridporrid03 at y...> wrote:
> >>Lupinlore:
> >I'll have to agree with Phoenixgod here, I don't recall Harry 
> getting any draft papers along the way.<
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> "They're saying he tried to kill the Potter's son, Harry.  But -- 
he 
> couldn't.  He couldn't kill that little boy.  No one knows why, or 
> how, but they're saying that when he couldn't kill Harry Potter, 
> Voldemort's powers somehow broke -- and that's why he's gone." (SS 
> paperback p. 12)

You misunderstand me. I said in my post that you could argue that he 
was drafted by destiny, but Tonks was saying that Harry should be a 
good little soldier and blindly do what he was told by his 
superiors. He certainly wasn't drafted by any earthly army so that 
arguement doesn't hold up imo. Harry is under no duty to do anything 
that DD and Snape want that doesn't directly apply to his schooling. 
Since he was under no duty, he required a more extensive explanation 
that I think would have given him the incentive he needed to buy 
into the lessons.
 
> > Betsy Hp:
> I don't recall Dumbledore ever being referred to as a sadistic 
> moron.  
> 
> "Listen to me Harry," he said urgently, "you must study Occlumency 
as 
> hard as you can, do you understand me?  Do everything Professor 
Sanpe 
> tells you and practice it particularly every night before sleeping 
so 
> that you can close your mind to bad dreams -- you will understand 
why 
> soon enough but you must promise me --" (OotP p.622)

Good point. but once again, its all vague threats and dire (but 
shadowy) warnings. There is no why in his answer.  Harry needed a 
better reason than that to counter the obvious benefits of having a 
line to the enemy. remember, this is pretty shortly after he saved a 
mans life thanks to the connection. 

He needed a reason and not orders but once again Dumbledore would 
rather keep secrets than spread knowledge, a poor philosophy for a 
teacher imo.
 
 
> Betsy Hp:
> You'll have to point out some examples of adults failing to listen 
to 
> Harry and trying to help him.  I've looked through the books and 
yes, 
> Sirius lets him down when he first shares his fears, but 
Dumbledore 
> and Snape are specifically attacking what most worries him -- 
being 
> possessed by Voldemort. 

As other people pointed out Harry was specifically belittled and 
made to feel unimportant by Snape during the lessons. I don't think 
that impressed on Harry the seriousness of the situation. To him, I 
think he saw the lessons as onerus make-work, and yet another cross 
added to his burden.

As for DD, he had done precious little that year to earn any 
goodwill for Harry. And I certainly wouldn't put any trust in a man 
who wouldn't look me in the eye for a year either.  Remember, while 
this is a short period of time for a novel, the time span is a year. 
that is days upon days, weeks upon weeks, and months upon months of 
being left in the dark, isolated, beset on all sides by enemies both 
within and without the school.  That is a long damn time for 
Dumbledore to leave Harry twisting in the wind. 

 And Harry *does* realize that's what the 
> Occlumency is for.  He says as much to Snape.  Only Harry decides 
> that it's worth being possessed by Voldemort if he can only keep 
> having his nifty dream.  Despite all the adults' (and Hermione's) 
> attempts to tell him that the dreams are dangerous. 

Of course they also saved someones life and was proving to be 
Harry's only source of information for an entire year.  I wouldn't 
want to shut that down with what I knew either.


> Betsy Hp:
> After you finish laughing, Lupinlore, I'd love to hear your 
> explanations as to the many times Snape has saved Harry's life, 
the 
> reason he took part in the Occlumency lessons in the first place, 
and 
> his putting up with Sirius in order to talk to Harry about 
Occlumency 
> lessons. 

Because Dumbledore is his boss and even Snape isn't going to want to 
watch a child die if he could stop it.

 Emotionally, as far as we know, I'm sure Snape would have 
> rather told Sirius to stick it, and left Harry to mentally battle 
> with Voldemort on his own.  I won't say that Snape is completely 
in 
> control of his emotions (witness PoA) but he's certainly not as 
ruled 
> by them as, say, Sirius.  

Sure he is. Snape is a bundle of neuroses that leak so badly I 
amazed I can pick the pages of the book apart. EVerything he does is 
based on childhood trauma.  Snape isn't the bad cop to Dumbledores 
good cop. He is an emotionally disturbed man and Dumbledore was 
insane to think that he could handle one on one tutoring with Harry.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> But if that's the case than there's *no way* Harry should ever be 
> allowed *near* the Order.  If Harry is so extremely disconnected 
from 
> his actions then he is far too much a child to take any part in a 
> war. Dumbledore holds some blame, but Harry hold some blame as 
well.  
> For Harry to become an adult he must recognize and atone for the 
> mistakes he's made so that he doesn't make them again. 

Harry doesn't need to *atone* for anything. Atoning implies that 
Harry has sinned and I don't think he has.  Atoning is what Snape 
and Sirius needed to do. Its what Dumbledore needs to do. It's what 
Percy needs to do. It's not what Harry needs to do.  All he needs to 
do is two things. One, read a copy of Enders Game. It'll teach him a 
lot. And secondly he needs to learn how to act and not react to 
events. Hopefully the second is going to happen in the next book and 
unfortunately the first is only going to happen in Fanfics. 

Otherwise, 
> he's an untrustworthy child.

I agree that he shouldn't have been made a full member of OOTP. He 
is after all still in school. However, considering his role in 
what's to come allowances should have been made, regardless of what 
his age is.  I think allowing him limited access to Order 
information and some sort of junior status once he learned 
occulomency would have been a fair and easily accomplished middle 
ground and left him happy.

And informed.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, Dumbledore erred, but not *that* badly.  (Unless I totally 
> misread the ending of OotP, the Order scored a bit of a victory 
> there.)

Depends on your definition.  If it was a victory then it was a small 
one compared to the losses and damage done.

 Dumbledore hesitated in telling Harry that he (Harry) is the 
> weapon Sirius was referring to back in the beginning of OotP.  I 
> think it was a very human mistake.  Who wants to tell a child they 
> care for that they're destined to become a killer?  But if Harry 
> leans on that mistake and insists that all other mistakes flowed 
from 
> that one, and that therefore he, Harry, is completely in the 
clear, 
> well then Harry is refusing to grow. 

I agree that Harry needs to learn from what happened and should grow 
from the events but I think you are wrong. What happened did flow 
from that central mistake of Dumbledore's.  Harry did hang himself 
because of his lack of foresight, but he hung himself with the rope 
that Dumbledore provided by keeping Harry ignorant.

> Betsy Hp:

 Though I do see some circular reasoning going on here.  I 
> thought you saw Dumbledore as a hopeless idiot and cold-hearted 
> bastard from SS/PS on?  That's what you've seemed to have argued 
in 
> other postings regarding Dumbledore's treatment of Harry and 
> reactions to various events, IIRC.  So if you think Dumbledore was 
an 
> idiot in OotP, wouldn't that be an example of JKR's consistency?

Other than my issues with leaving Harry with the dursley (which I 
was willing to give him a pass on before OOTP) Dumbledore was my 
second favorite character in the series. I liked him because he 
wasn't the typical school master. He was funny and had a sweet 
tooth. He was slightly irreverent and not one to stand on 
convention. He was a good teacher and most of all, He *trusted* 
Harry. He let Harry have his adventures and even gave his tacit 
approval to many of them. He recognized Harry's formidable talents 
and respected them. He recognized the boy's competency in the face 
of danger.

That man disappeared in OOTP and he was replaced by someone I didn't 
recognize and certainly didn't like.  Where did the man go who told 
Harry at the end of the previous year that he had shouldered adult 
burdens and bore them well? Why couldn't he have trusted Harry one 
more time like he had so many other times before when even he 
himself had been caught off guard?
 
> Betsy Hp, who *loved* OotP, especially when it showed Dumbledore 
> thinking on his feet

I did like his escape scene from Hogwarts. the one DD scene in the 
book that made me smile.

<raises glass>

Here's to more of those in the next book

phoenixgod2000