[HPforGrownups] Re: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG)

[Amanda Geist]

No: HPFGUIDX 130118

This thread is rapidly getting to the "agree to disagree" point, but let me
answer some things. It's in sections, and my use of capitals is not meant to
shout, but to stand out, because formatting options are limited.

Alla:

Voldie is ALWAYS in Harry's head and he is aware of it. What he had NOT been
explained is what CHANGED, why despite the fact that he saved Arthur with
that connection, he cannot do that anymore.

I can perfectly see that in Harry's mind for example to continue keep the
connection would be the greater good and nobody told him why it won't be.

Amanda:

Section I. SNAPE TOLD HIM WHY

I categorically disagree. How things had changed had been explained to Harry
in detail. Snape was being unusually forthcoming in the conversation and
spoke quite clearly.

I don't want to type the whole thing, so I am going to type salient Snape
phrases. They are embedded in a conversation, and some of you may feel that
the context, rather than the content of what Snape says, drove Harry's
comprehension. I maintain, however, that the repetition alone should have
carried the point.

1. 530, OoP
    "Snape continued to survey him through narrowed eyes for a moment, then
said, "Now, Occlumency. As I told you back in your dear godfather's kitchen,
this branch of magic seals the mind against magical intrusion and
influence."
(I personally got it at this point and considered that Harry's immediate
question of "why does Dumbledore think I need it" was to pump Snape for
information; I never thought Harry could possibly not understand at that
point.)

2. 531, OoP
    ...(Snape is speaking) "Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to
shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter
falsehoods in his presence without detection."
    Whatever Snape said, Legilimency sounded like mind reading to Harry and
he did not like the sound of it at all.
    "So he could know what we're thinking right now? Sir?"

Here, Harry has grasped the gist. With that question, he understands that
the channel works both ways.

3. 531, OoP
    "Well, then, why do I have to learn Occlumency?"
    Snape eyed Harry, tracing his mouth with one long, thin finger as he did
so.
    "The usual rules do not seem to apply with you, Potter. The curse that
failed to kill you seems to have forged some kind of connection between you
and the Dark Lord. The evidence suggests that at times, when your mind is
most relaxed and vulnerable--when you are asleep, for instance--you are
sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions. The headmaster thinks this
inadvisable to continue. He wishes me to teach you how to close your mind to
the Dark Lord."

At this point, Snape has clearly explained the existence of the connection
and why Harry is not protected at Hogwarts the way anyone else would be.

Now, this is the part most of you cite as key: Harry asking why stop it, if
it's been useful.

4. 531-532, OoP
    Snape stared at Harry for a few moments, still tracing his mouth with
his finger. When he spoke, it was slowly and deliberately, as though he
weighed every word.
    "It appears that the Dark Lord has been unaware of the connection
between you and himself until very recently. Up till now it seems that you
have been experiencing his emotions and sharing his thoughts without his
being any the wiser. However, the vision you had shortly before Christmas--"
....  "represented such a powerful incursion upon the Dark Lord's
thoughts---"

Harry interrupted Snape twice in this particular exchange. Snape is clearly
tense in this scene. He is speaking in a manner unusual enough for Harry to
notice and mark it. Slowly and deliberately. He is being careful what he
reveals to Harry. I am betting there's a reason.

My theory is that the reason they know Voldemort is aware, is that Voldemort
said something in Snape's hearing, and to reveal details of how they know
could risk Snape's mission and/or life. Snape is, I believe, saying all he
can.

5. 532-533, OoP

    "You seem to have visited the snake's mind because that was where the
Dark Lord was at that particular moment," snarled Snape.  "He was possessing
the snake at the time and so you dreamed you were inside it too...."
    "And Vol--he--realized I was there?"
    "It seems so," said Snape coolly.
    "How do you know?" said Harry urgently.  "Is this just Professor
Dumbledore guessing, or -- ?"
....
    "It is enough that we know," said Snape repressively.

This again sounds to me as if there is an edge Snape is walking, in what
Harry needs to be told, and what he can safely be told. Given Snape's
general impatience with Harry, that he spent so long explaining amazed me
while I was reading it.

5 continued:
    (Snape speaking) "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware
that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also
deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he
has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in
return --"
    "And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry. "Sir?" he added
hurriedly.
    "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us
back to Occlumency.

The messages I think should have come across loud and clear were said in so
many words:
--You need to learn to close your mind against external influences (in
quotes 1, 3)
--There is an established connection between you and Voldemort (quote 3, as
if Harry didn't already know this from scar prickles and such throughout
earlier books)
--You need this because Voldemort has become aware of the connection between
you (quotes 4, 5)
--You need this because he might try to influence your thoughts or behavior
(quote 5)

The only thing not said:
--You need this because Voldemort can spy on us through you (touched on but
not said specifically, in quote 2). I maintain that this last, given all the
rest, is not a tremendous reach to achieve.

I have tutored. You repeat things in different ways until the student gets
it. And it really looks to me like Snape gave it a good shot to explain, as
much as he could. But at that point, I think Snape believed Harry got
it--because as I stated in my huge Occlumency analysis, Harry *lied* to
Snape *and* Hermione, and Ron, repeatedly about Harry's efforts towards
Occlumency, his dreams, and his understanding. How, if Harry never tried to
communicate a lack of understanding to anyone, could anyone know they needed
to explain it *again.*

My bottom line: Harry did not *want* to succeed, and I cannot grant that
lack of understanding was part of that reason. I will give you that by that
time, Voldemort may have been in the driver's seat, and will not blame Harry
quite as much as I sound like.

Section II. VOLDEMORT WAS A POTENTIAL PARTICIPANT IN THE CONVERSATION

I believe much of the Snape characterization we see in this scene is
misinterpreted. Harry believes so fully that Snape's hatred of him is a
driving force, he sees all Snape reactions in terms of it. I believe that
there may well be other reasons--such as Snape being tense, or Snape
deciding what can safely be told to Harry in the context of the broader
effort and their knowledge of how much Voldemort is likely to "hear" from
Harry's mind.

The "coolly" and "cool and unconcerned" were flags to me, because they
happened so rapidly after reactions Harry sees as fury (i.e., immediately
after Snape "snarls" a response). I think it's likely that Snape is trying
very hard *not* to have emotion attached to these sessions with Harry at
all--because he wants to be able to hide them from Voldemort later. I
believe Snape is mastering rather a lot of tension at personal danger and
threat to the overall effort; not only in this scene, but in all the
lessons.

I believe Harry is shortsightedly interpreting all of it in as being very
personal and directed at him. For Harry--and for a lot of the posters who
read this section--Snape's reactions are all about Harry. I don't think this
is the case. I think there are three parties to the conversation--Snape,
Harry, and Voldemort--and that Snape realizes this and Harry will not.
Snape's reactions and "coolness" are attempts to carry out this Occlumency
task while not endangering his other task for the Order.

However, Harry continues to treat this as some kind of duel; he is satisifed
when a question unnerves Snape. He expects (and does not get) a personal
reaction when he breaks into Snape's memories later.

OMG, I'm combining. A last note, from
Dolies' post:

..."The important thing is that THE DARK LORD IS NOW AWARE THAT YOU ARE
GAINING ACCESS TO HIS THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS.  HE HAS ALSO DEDUCED THAT THE
PROCESS IS LIKELY TO WORK IN REVERSE; THAT IS TO SAY, HE HAS REALIZED THAT
HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO ACCESS YOUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS IN RETURN -"

"AND HE MIGHT TRY AND MAKE ME DO THINGS?" asked Harry....

Alla:

Let's finish this quote, shall we? ;)

"He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us back
to Occlumency" - OOP, p.333, paperback.

Nope, does not sound to me as stressing importance of the lessons at all. If
Snape sounded unconcerned, why exactly should Harry be more concerned than
him?

Amanda:

Because this conversation has the potential to include Voldemort, as Snape
knows, Harry should know, and Snape is in the process of telling him in case
he *doesn't* know. As I said above, I think Snape's coolness is deliberate
and is an action to protect his other task. Look at the schizophrenic way
Snape (according to Harry's interpretation) is blipping from anger to
coolness to anger, etc. This is Snape, agitated, and doing his best to
control it, so that it will have no great emotional tags to it and he will
be able to hide it from Voldemort.

This ties in to the reason I believe Snape never ate at the Order
headquarters, nor stayed long. And, incidentally, another reason he's so
nasty to Harry et al. (not that I think it's a great effort for him to be
nasty). I think he needs to minimize any memories that would be difficult to
explain to Voldemort, and I think he's been keeping his "memories" clean for
years in preparation for this current task.

Section IIII. YES, HARRY SHOULD TRUST SNAPE AT LEAST THIS FAR

Combining again, ye gods.

Alla:
Nope, Harry was not RIGHT not to trust Snape, but he was justified in not
trusting Snape, IMO. Snape gave him no reasons to trust him during these
five years.

Remember ? "Mr. Potter, our new celebrity"

Amanda:
Remember Snape breaking Quirrell's curse to save Harry, and refereeing the
Quidditch game afterward to prevent something similar, both of which Harry
was told about? [and neither of which he ever acknowledged in any way to
Snape, by the way.]

Alla:
Remember than at the end of the POA they tried to tell Snape the TRUTH about
what happened. What did they get in response? Oh, yes. The children were
confunded.

Amanda:
An alternate interpretation has been that Snape was letting them off by
saying this--otherwise he would have been justified in asking for their
expulsion following their attack on him in the Shack.

Etc. I'm tired. But I can tell you one thing that is true, a point I made in
my Occlumency post. Snape has done a lot of things--been nasty, vindictive,
rude, mean, etc. But he has *never* lied to Harry. Ever. Snape's methods
suck--but his actions have been consistently protective. Harry doesn't need
to like Snape to work with him, and has more than enough reason to trust him
far enough to do that work--if he had let himself.

Section IV. HARRY UNDERSTANDS SNAPE'S AUTHORITY

Oh, one more point to Phoenixgod: here is the exchange wherein Harry accepts
Snape's authority in Occlumency [p. 530, OoP]:

    "This may not be an ordinary class, Potter," said Snape, his eyes
narrowed malevolently, "but I am still your teacher and you will therefore
call me 'sir' or 'Professor' at all times"
    "Yes...sir," said Harry.

Section V. DUMBLEDORE WAS NOT REMISS IN ASSIGNING SNAPE

I think a lot of you are seeing this incorrectly. I think Snape was a very
dangerous, and reluctantly settled upon, alternative. Dumbledore would have
preferred to teach Harry. He thought it too risky, and he was right--because
Voldemort *was* coiled in the back of Harry's mind. This is evidenced by
what happened the two times Dumbledore *did* meet Harry's eyes. I cannot
fault Dumbledore for making a correct assumption and doing the best he could
to work around it (i.e., assigning the next best person skilled at
Occlumency to teach Harry). That he considered benefits to Harry learning
this outweighed the risks to Snape and Snape's task, staggered me.

~Amanda