Harry's role in OotP - The Connection

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 130156

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill"
<littleleah at h...> wrote:
> Calimora wrote:
> 
> >I'm with PhoenixGod, on this one. 'Dumbledore couldn't even look at
> >him' is not an excuse for leaving your orphaned protege twisting in
> >the wind for a year. Not in a society with ink and paper.
> 
> >"Dear Harry, I'm sorry we can't speak face to face right now. I'll
> >tell you why - in person - once you've mastered Occulmency.
> 
> >-Dumbledore
> >p.s. Feel to send a note via houselves any time you need me."
> 
> > An 'explanation' and a goad for his curiosity - solid motivation
> > for Harry - all in one. No vague 'you will understand soon enough'
> > (which he didn't).
 
 
> Leah now:
> 
> But DD feared Voldemort was poking about in the recesses of Harry's 
> mind. If DD had written that note, what might VM find next time 
> he 'got in'?  Harry thinking, "I must block this, I must master 
> Occlumency, because then DD will tell me EVERYTHING".  If I were 
> Voldemort and 'heard' that, I'd just lie quietly for a while; no 
> more dreams until that glorious day arrived.
> 
> I'm not happy with DD's behaviour, but I don't think there's a 
> simple alternative.
> 
> Leah

bboyminn:

It's no secret that I'm in the school that thinks Dumbedore or someone
else could have very easily given Harry sufficient motivation to
understand the need for Occlumency without giving away any secrets.

In the example currently under discussion, you need to remind yourself
that Harry only gets the 'everything' when he has learned to protect
that 'everything'. And for the record, the previous poster wasn't
suggesting that Harry be told 'everything', just that Dumbledore would
explain what was going on once Harry learned Occlumency. 

The Promise of explanation would be the motivation to learn; the
explanation would be the reward. 

The key is that in providing motivation, whether in the form of a
promise of immediate need and later explanation, or sufficient
information to help Harry understand the need, they could have given
Harry reason to study harder. As it was, they only TOLD him to study
but with no explanation as to why. He was left with frustration,
confusion, anger, and an obvious lack of understanding; which are the
very things that Harry didn't need in order to reach his objective.
Again, poking and angry person with a sharp stick is not an effective
way to calm them down.

So, the 'why' doesn't have to be 'everything', just enough to motivate
Harry, to give him reason for the urgencey. And I already said that I
believe that could have been done without compromising Order secrets.


Further, let's take a closer look at this Scar Connection; people have
greatly overrate this connection by making logical but greatly
exaggerated assumptions. The connection does not give Voldemort a 24
hour-a-day, know-all, see-all window into Harry's mind. Harry doesn't
see into Voldemort's mind that way, so their is no reason to assume it
works that way for Voldemort.

So far Harry, when he is vulnerable or susceptible, as when he is in
fitful sleep, can pick up on real events that are happening to
Voldemort, but it is very random. Second, Harry can sense Voldemort
emotions at certain times when those emotions are very strong. But he
can't read Voldemort mind, he can't mine Voldemort's total bank of
knowledge and memories at will.

Further, so far, we have not seen that Harry can project thoughts into
Voldemort's mind. I think being able to do this is like beating a lie
detector. You have to so thoroughly believe what you are
saying/projecting that in essense it becomes truth to you. 

For example, if Dumbledore, through Harry's scar connection, wanted to
give Voldemort false information perhaps to just mislead him, or
perhaps to lure him into a trap, it would have to be done by Harry
sending a false projection of what appeared to be a real-time
real-life occurance. For that to happen effectively, I speculate,
Harry would have to thoroughly believe it to be true, and have a
complete mental image of the events to project. Even more so, to do
that, they would have to sense when Voldemort was vulnerable and
therefore receptive to the projection. For Harry, that would be an
extremely difficult task.

Voldemort does have some advantages in the he is skilled at
Legilimens, but that skill is not full 100% all-knowing all-seeing
mind reading. We have been told that Voldemort can always tell when
people are lying. We have also been told that a Legilimens reader can
sense certain thoughts and feelings related to a lie. But again, this
seems to be more like an intuitive process than like watching a TV.

I have always contended that the Legilimens Spell is not an exact
replica of the legilimens process/talent/skill. The Spell creates an
uncontrollable cascade of random memories. Take note that I said
memories, not thoughts. That's not very helpfull when you are looking
for one specific thing. In a sense, you are trusting on dumb luck for
what you need to come randomly floating by. Plus, then you have to
interpret what you see, and for it to be effective, you have to
interpret accurately.

I think the process/skill/talent of Legilimency, in all likelihood,
allows you to be more selective, to scan for more specific thoughts
and feelings, but the trade off is that the information comes in a
much more vague and intuitive format. At the same time, don't discount
the nature of a true intuitive divination skill, it can be very
powerful and accurate, but again, it's not like watching TV.

So, in exploiting the mind link, Voldemort certainly, being an older,
experience, skilled, and powerful wizard, has an advantage, but he
doesn't, in my estimation, have 100% 24 hours all-knowing all-seeing
Harry Vision.

We have seen Harry 'remote view' events involving Voldemort.

We have seen Harry sense Voldemort's real-time feelings when they are
very strong.

We have seen Voldemort project false images into Harry mind.

But we haven't seen Voldemort call up specific information from
Harry's mind when ever he feels like it. We have nothing to establish
that the link goes that far.

Just a thought.
Steve/bboyminn